@seoigh
1 year ago (edited)
So rewarding (as Dr. Kipp usually is) to NOT get one of Ehrman’s condescending “this is easily rebutted” diatribes… followed up by no easy rebuttal. Nicely done, Dr. Kipp.

@DrKippDavis
1 year ago
Thank you.

@torreyintahoe
1 year ago
I have been a Carrier follower for a few years now. His argument sounded solid and he seems to know his material. Discovering Kipp Davis and then Tim ONeill has been a humbling educational experience for me but oh well, my attitude is I’ll believe what makes sense to me until I’m provided with better information. Better to be humbled than to stick to your guns despite better information.

@dougrobinson6683
1 year ago

At best, this video convinced me that Carrier is right, but perhaps for the wrong reasons, as even the corrections leave a landscape ripe for the literary invention of Jesus. I swear if one combines the work of Davis, Mason, and Tabor with MacDonald, Walsh, and Miller, you get a type of mythicism without any Carrier.

@DrKippDavis
1 year ago
Yeah, that’s fine. And to reiterate—my point has never been to engage with mythicism, but rather to show what is actually going on in the Jewish literature that Carrier muddles in his book. If there is a credible case to be made for mythicism I am eager to see it, but nothing forwarded so far has risen to the level of even remotely convincing.

@KarlKarsnark
1 year ago
2:00 “Peer reviewed, but ignored by “Scholars”…” Are we trying to make an Argument from Authority in an “Academic” setting? LOL! “Biblical Scholarship” really is just an embarrassment to Reason, Logic, the Scientific Method, Archeology, Chemistry, Genomics, Comparative Literature, Linguistics, Art <—You have ZERO familiarity, or ability in any of these areas. Anyone can read, write or "interpret" anything at any time. It means nothing. It proves nothing. It is nothing.

Steefen
When did the Jews ask Roman to get involved in their affairs?

Chat:
The involvement of Rome in Jewish affairs began in the 1st century BCE, primarily at the invitation of Jewish factions seeking support during internal conflicts.
Key Event: Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II (67–63 BCE)

The Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled Judea, became embroiled in a civil war between two brothers, Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II, who both sought to claim the throne. In 67 BCE, Hyrcanus II, with the encouragement of his advisor Antipater the Idumaean (father of Herod the Great), sought the assistance of the Roman general Pompey the Great.

63 BCE: Pompey intervened in Judea, effectively ending the civil war. However, instead of fully supporting Hyrcanus II or Aristobulus II, Pompey besieged Jerusalem and installed Hyrcanus II as a high priest with limited power, while making Judea a client state under Roman oversight.

This marked the beginning of direct Roman involvement in Jewish affairs, which grew over time, culminating in the Roman annexation of Judea as a province in 6 CE.

The decision to invite Rome into Jewish affairs is often viewed as a turning point that led to significant Roman influence, eventual occupation, and later conflicts, including the Jewish revolts against Roman rule.

Steefen:
I thought so, except I did not recall that annexation did not occur until 6 BCE.

SO: The Dead Sea Scroll community did not need the Teacher of Righteousness to be the Messiah to deliver Judea from Rome, either.

The beginning of a need for a messianic separation from Rome was 6 CE with Judah the Galilean, Simon of Perea, and Athronges.

Chat,
Who were the three leaders of the Jewish Revolt of 6 CE, one of which was Judah the Galilean, another was Simon of Perea, who was the third?

Chat GPT said:

The Jewish revolt of 6 CE, often referred to as the Census Revolt, was sparked by the Roman census conducted by Quirinius after Judea became a Roman province. The uprising is associated with three leaders:

Judah the Galilean:
A founder of the Zealot movement, Judah opposed the Roman occupation and taxation, viewing it as a violation of Jewish sovereignty and faith.
He argued that Jews should serve God alone, not foreign rulers, laying ideological groundwork for later resistance against Rome.

Simon of Perea:
A former slave of Herod the Great, Simon declared himself king after Herod’s death, claiming messianic authority.
His revolt was short-lived; Roman forces defeated him, and he was executed.

Athronges:
A shepherd-turned-rebel leader, Athronges proclaimed himself king and led a band of fighters during this turbulent period.
He gained notoriety for his bold attacks on both Roman forces and local collaborators. Like Simon, his revolt was ultimately crushed.

These figures reflect the diverse opposition to Roman rule in Judea, combining religious, social, and messianic aspirations.

FocusMyView
30 CE, imho, reflects Mark’s choice of time setting, exactly 40 years prior to the fall of Jerusalem, imitating Jeremiah and Jesus son of Nun in the scriptures.

Steefen
I highly doubt a historical Bmessiah named Jesus from Galilee was crucified in the early 30s. There was a Jesus from Galilee who went to battle with Vespasian and Titus at the Battle of Galilee in the late 60s.