1. “Before Abraham, I am”
That is, before tradition, before the Name was given, the Lord existed. Law > Tradition, an important part of Jesus ideology and actions: that the Pharisees are blinded to the Law by their tradition. I do not think that Jesus was referring to himself, but that this is more the result of a (purposeful?) corruption in the translation of phrasing.
2. That Jesus claims to be God in John 10:10
Shortly after this line, Jesus quotes Psalm 82 “Ye are gods, and all of you children of the Most High”
It is not unreasonable to speculate that Jesus was responding to the charge of making himself out to be God by responding that yes, he is a godlike being, and a Son, and he is acting like it, something all Israelites should aspire to. (Psalm 82 also gives Jesus his instruction for this task: “Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked”. Jesus was cleansing them, saving them, even if “They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness”.)
In my opinion Psalm 82 is a crucial part of Jesus’ theology (maybe it had a catchy melody?), and it begs a comparison to the Lord’s Prayer. Keeping all this in mind, when Jesus says that he and the Father are one, he is saying that he believes himself to be a god in the image of God who is doing God’s work on Earth, and if you aren’t doing that then you are must not be a Son of God. (My interpretation of the Psalm is slightly looser than Bart’s, which says that the Psalm is strictly referring to powerful men.)
3. That the apostles worship Jesus
I am interested in knowing whether the original word was something more like “praise” or whether this is the same word that might be used in relation to one who you would consider your King from the line of David.
Psalm 82 for reference
82 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
On # 1 & 2 : John is the latest gospel as far as we know, and as Bart talks about its also the gospel where you see the claims of divinity coming into the mix. Very probably a later development. I also doubt seriously Jesus called the Jews en masse the spawn of satan as he does in John since anti-Semitism was also a later addition, sadly creeping into the story.
So John has several differences that seem to be later developments in Christianity – quite possibly things Jesus never said or taught.
Sorry, I don’t know about #3
Steve Clark said
John is the latest gospel as far as we know, and as Bart talks about its also the gospel where you see the claims of divinity coming into the mix. Very probably a later development.
Paul also refers to Jesus as God … in writings which predate John by maybe 40 years.
Predates John but still roughly 20 yrs after Jesus death ! Which verses are you ref specifically ? Didn’t he seem to indicate Jesus was sub to God in places as well ?
These verses sound like God the Father and Jesus are distinct different beings with dif levels and different powers – walking back down the road to Polytheism from Damascus :
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we by Him. I Corinthians 8:6
I think Paul was one confused fellow…I think his views shift around during his lifetime.
Steve Clark said
Predates John but still roughly 20 yrs after Jesus death ! Which verses are you ref specifically ? Didn’t he seem to indicate Jesus was sub to God in places as well ?These verses sound like God the Father and Jesus are distinct different beings with dif levels and different powers – walking back down the road to Polytheism from Damascus :
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28
Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we by Him. I Corinthians 8:6
I think Paul was one confused fellow…I think his views shift around during his lifetime.
Paul is articulating what would be developed as the theology of the Trinity.
If you believe that the theology of the Trinity reflects polytheism, then, yes, Paul is expressing polytheism. But so are all Christians for two millennia.
No…I didn’t say that at all.
Do I think Jesus himself and even his own family and Mary herself thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think his first followers the ones who walked with him while he was alive thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think Jesus taught he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think the roughly 100 – 200 Christians who knew him personally – and survived after his death thought he was divine ? Nope.
So I guess it all turns on the word early…I suppose earliest makes more sense ?
Do I think Christians decades after he died began developing beliefs that he might have some level of divinity – though they were completely unsure and in disagreement about what level that may be ? Yep !
Steve Clark said
No…I didn’t say that at all.Do I think Jesus himself and even his own family and Mary herself thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think his first followers the ones who walked with him while he was alive thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think Jesus taught he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think the 100 – 200 Christians who knew him personally and survived after his death thought he was divine ? Nope.
So I guess it all turns on the word early…I suppose earliest makes more sense ?
Do I think Christians decades after he died began developing beliefs that he might have some level of divinity – though they were completely unsure and in disagreement about what level that may be ? Yep !
Okay. Since Paul’s letter to the Philippians is one of the oldest surviving texts of Christians, and since Paul makes the claim in Philippians that Jesus is divine . . . . what is the very strongest evidence that earlier Christians did not believe Jesus was divine?
Steve Clark said
No…I didn’t say that at all.Do I think Jesus himself and even his own family and Mary herself thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think his first followers the ones who walked with him while he was alive thought he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think Jesus taught he was divine ? Nope.
Do I think the roughly 100 – 200 Christians who knew him personally – and survived after his death thought he was divine ? Nope.
So I guess it all turns on the word early…I suppose earliest makes more sense ?
Do I think Christians decades after he died began developing beliefs that he might have some level of divinity – though they were completely unsure and in disagreement about what level that may be ? Yep !
Same here. Couldn’t agree more. I have the original signed confession of the conspirators who banded together to create a new book. They knew a few things. Figured it would be the # 1 best seller and they’d all be rich. Struck gold. Gold, baby.
Steve Clark said
I’ll turn the tables here…what is your strongest evidence that Mary (I think she would know), Jesus family, and the people who knew him best – the people who grew up with him thought he was God?What is your strongest evidence his first followers thought so ?
The fact that a Church was created in Jerusalem with Jesus’s brother, James, as its head. Paul visits this community within 6 or so years of his crucifixion. And Paul treats this community as having the ultimate earthly authority on Christianity.
I think the early Christians (including Paul) thought Jesus was divine. It’s just that for them being divine did not mean being co-equal with God the Father. Divinity for the ancients was not a fixed barrier. It was a continuum. I think the earliest concept of the resurrection was not a resuscitation but an assumption. I will discuss this presently over at the Empty Tomb thread.
I do not think that Jesus ever taught that he was divine. No implications of such in the Gospel of Mark, and the sayings we know came from him show no indication of this.
However, I do think it likely that some of his followers eventually developed the notion. Paul most certainly thought of Jesus as divine, and I think it likely that he communicated with other apostles and contemporaries. I don’t think it entirely unlikely that some of what is recorded in Acts and the other Epistles regarding the other apostles is inaccurate necessarily.
Now what we mean by divine is very different from what they meant, though.
As Dr. Ehrman has pointed out in his books, there were many different levels and ideas of divinity in ancient times. I definitely think it to be the case that some early followers still thought of him as divine. Did they think of him as a god? Some of them might have. Did they think of him as equal to god the father? No. I doubt it entirely.
But I definitely think it likely that early Christians thought of him as divine in some way.
I agree with Stephen’s formulation: “divine, but not co-equal with God the Father.”
Also agree with the rest of Chris Hansen’s view. Clearly, Jesus of Nazareth, while not equal to God the Father, was something more than a mere prophet and something quite different and greater than Second Temple notions of messiah.
“Greater” would be a matter of subjective opinion. Second Temple Messianic teachings are that the Messiah would be a divinely chosen hand of God, meant to establish the laws of Moses, conquer and defeat Israel’s enemies, and free them from captivity, thus placing the world at the hands of an enormous theocracy. He would then return all the Jews from exile, be King, destroy all weapons of war, all the dead would rise up, death would end forever, he would grant any worthy wish of your heart, etc.
In short, the Messiah would bring around ultimate paradise on Earth itself. Whereas Jesus was claiming it would be in Heaven after death.
One could easily argue the Jewish Messiah to be far superior in acts and ideas than Jesus was.
The idea of Jesus’ divine qualities, especially once the concept of the trinity came about, merely made him far more complicated in a theological sense.
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