“I remember Bart at one time going with 67 CE as the date for Mark but over the past 12 years or so, he accepted a 70/71 CE dating”
And what date for Revelation’s writing?
Revelation 11:1 (NIV)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,
“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.
Quote
David Ford
“I remember Bart at one time going with 67 CE as the date for Mark but over the past 12 years or so, he accepted a 70/71 CE dating”
And what date for Revelation’s writing?
Revelation 11:1 (NIV)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told,
“Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.
= = =
Steefen
What’s your point?
David Ford
Bart D.E.“Scholars… the majority… think the answer is ‘afterward,’ in part because they see the comments of Mark 13 about the Temple (that it will be destroyed) as indicating that Mark was living after the fact”
David Ford
Were Daniel’s visions first formulated _after_ the occurrence of the events the book of Daniel describes in those visions?
Steefen
Yes, the majority of them were.
The consensus among scholars is that the four beasts of chapter 7, like the metals of chapter 2, symbolise Babylon, Media, Persia and the Seleucid Greeks, with Antiochus IV as the “small horn” that uproots three others (Antiochus usurped the rights of several other claimants to become king).
Four kingdoms of Daniel – Wikipedia
Bart D.E.2/19/2017
The question with Mark is whether it was written before or after the Jewish War with Rome, that ended with the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Temple, in 70 CE. Scholars debate the point, but the majority (outside of fundamentalists and very very conservative evangelicals) think the answer is “afterward,” in part because they see the comments of Mark 13 about the Temple (that it will be destroyed) as indicating that Mark was living after the fact.
I’m not sure if this is right or not; I have tended to think that Mark’s description of the destruction is so vague that it’s not clear that he knows about it as a past event. But that may be simply because he is living outside of Palestine and has just heard the rumors of what it was like.
Steefen
If Zechariah foretold the destruction of the Temple and Jesus picked that up–it seems both Zechariah and Jesus were Jewish Apocalypticists (FALSE3 PROPHETS):
Zech 14: 9
On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth—the LORD alone, and His name alone.
Steefen
That didn’t happen.
“the four beasts of chapter 7, like the metals of chapter 2, symbolise Babylon, Media, Persia and the Seleucid Greeks, with Antiochus IV as the “small horn” that uproots three others (Antiochus usurped the rights of several other claimants to become king)”
When was the 4 beasts and the metals descriptions written? (before Antiochus IV did uprooting?)
When was Daniel’s ’70 weeks’ material written? (after the ’70 weeks’ had already occurred?)
Evidence that Revelation was written after AD70?
I’m not dignifying that question with a response. Make a case that it was written before AD70 and I might respond. Life makes people busy earnings, success, socializing, physical exercise for health and fitness, and more (no time for questions of that kind).
“I’m not dignifying that question with a response”
Suit yourself.
_Documents of the Primitive Church_ by Charles Cutler Torrey (1941), 309pp., on 241-242
** you do not have permission to see this link **
….the fact is of no little importance that we have here, in plain words, an example of the early Christian assertion that the day of verbal inspiration had returned. The claim that John is an inspired prophet and that his book is holy scripture is as clear and emphatic as any words can make it. This brings the date of the book within narrow limits. The absurdity of supposing that this Aramaic document claiming Jewish canonicity could have been put forth after its doctrine had been officially pronounced damnable heresy is obvious. It certainly was published before the year 80. But this is not all; a date before the year 70 is plainly indicated. If the book had been written between 70 and 80 there certainly would have been in it some allusion to the great catastrophe. Silence in regard to it, in view of the author’s intense interest in the holy city, is simply inconceivable.
Moreover, the date cannot have been much _before_ 70. The theology of the book has advanced some distance beyond that of our earliest Christian writings. As Swete remarks, pp. cliv f.,
“No one who comes to the Apocalypse fresh from the study of the Gospels and Epistles can fail to recognize that he has passed into another atmosphere…. The Christ of the Apocalypse is the Christ of the Gospels, but a change has passed over Him which is beyond words.”
The Church doctrine has progressed.
It is to be observed how the results thus reached, a date shortly before the year 70, confirms the explicit statement of the author of Rev., that he wrote in the time of the sixth emperor before the seventh had come to the throne; that is, in the year 68.
The fact has already been emphasized, that the terror of the Beast is over all the latter half of the book. The horrible scenes of the year 64, in Rome, are fresh in mind. There is no need to conjecture what the steadfast Christians would be called upon to face, on the return of the Beast. The farther away from Nero’s reign the book is dated, the more incomprehensible is the amount of space given to this apprehension.
A most important passage, truly decisive in view of all the other evidence, is the beginning (the first two verses) of chapter 11, where John is commanded to take a reed (Ezek. 40:3 ff.) and measure the temple and the altar; but not to measure the court of the Gentiles, symbolic of the tribulation still to be endured. Jerusalem and the temple are standing, the armies of Titus have not yet entered the city. This was written before the year 70….
“Bart Ehrman wrote a book about Revelation”
0 Xtians died when Jerusalem got overrun in A.D. 70, because Xtians heeded Jesus’ Matthew 24 warnings and Revelation’s warnings.
_Armageddon: What the Bible Really Says about the End_ by Bart D. Ehrman (2023), on 15
Revelation was not written to show what would happen in the twenty-first century.
It was written by an author in the first century who was addressing
readers of his own time with a message _they_ needed to learn.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)