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Can We Learn About The Historical Jesus From Jewish and Muslim Sources?
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October 13, 2019 - 4:57 pm

Shalom and Salaam everyone, my name is Farooq. One question that has always intrigued me even growing up with a Catholic education was: “Can We Learn About The Historical Jesus From Jewish and Muslim Sources?” And so this is the topic that I have chosen as an opener for intellectual discourse. I am an independent researcher who has studied the Old and New Testaments for over 20 years! Additionally, I have also studied for the same amount of time what some in Muslim academia might refer to as God’s final will and testament, otherwise known as “the Qur’an” or “the Last Testament.” I am confident that after careful review that the answer to my opener is “yes.” But, I know that my answer will be met with extreme opposition especially where the Qur’an is concerned because it is a book rejected by Western scholarship. Having said that, perhaps there are open-minded individuals that might be interested in knowing something about this topic nonetheless? One point I would like to make is the fact that the English translation of the Qur’an uses the name “Jesus.” The original Arabic text, however, uses “Isa” which in the Semitic tongue is no different than “Yesu” an abbreviation for “Yehoshua” in Hebrew or “Joshua” in English. Please forgive any typos. This is my first post…

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Robert
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October 13, 2019 - 5:19 pm
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godspell

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October 13, 2019 - 6:08 pm

What we mainly learn from these later sources is how Jesus was viewed by non-Christians who lived centuries later.   There is no reason to take them any more seriously than later Christian legends about Jesus, but that doesn’t mean we can’t find them interesting, perhaps illuminating.  There is one I’ve always treasured since I first heard it.  

** you do not have permission to see this link **

Truthfully, however different Jewish, Christian and Muslim views of Jesus were by the point in time we can find Jewish and Muslim sources about him, what they all have in common with each other is that they no longer care much about the historical Jesus.  I think some of the early Christian writers still did, but the process of mythologizing him was already well under way.  

Since I do not believe myths are without merit, I don’t reject them.  I also don’t call them history.   History would be more about how we sift fact and myth–throwing neither away, but putting them in separate categories, as best we can.

Perhaps you know the story of how when the Prophet Muhammad came to Medina, he saw men climbing up the female date palms to hand-pollinate them, having gathered the pollen from the male trees.  Perhaps he saw this as unnatural, men helping plants have sex, but for whatever reason he indicated his dislike of the process, and said it would be fine if they stopped.  At this time his word had become law there, so they ceased performing the hand pollination.  And the date harvest was consequently much reduced.  When they told him this (the Prophet being notably fond of dates), he relented, saying they knew better than him about that kind of thing.

For generations, Muslims have argued about what this story means.  The usual interpretation is that Muhammad was just a man, and didn’t know everything.  Some would say (as many Catholics do about the Pope) that he was infallible on matters of religion only, but of course that begs the question–where do earthly matters end and spiritual ones begin, since after all most religions concern themselves greatly with matters of reproduction (which is probably what Muhammad was doing in that story).  They come up with interpretations that say this has no bearing on their teachings at all, even though their teachings supposedly come from Muhammad, who the story clearly tells us was fallible.  

My question would be–do we know this story happened?  The Doctrine of Dissimilarity tells us that Muslims wouldn’t have told this story if it wasn’t known to be true–they would find it embarrassing.  And that is a strong argument.  But another argument could be that some later Muslims might have been weary of meddlesome imams constantly putting in their oars, poking into secular matters, often in ignorance equal to that of Muhammad’s in the story, and this was a myth created to address that point, restore some balance.  The story serves a purpose for Muslims who want to assert that earthly knowledge has value as well.  So perhaps the story didn’t happen, or what actually happened was more complex.  We’ll never know for sure.  Even though Muhammad’s life is in some ways far better documented than that of Jesus, the process of mythologizing him also got under way even while he was still alive, because he, unlike Jesus, gained great temporal power in his own lifetime.  

So what we really learn is that even then, Muslims had differences amongst themselves–as did Jews and Christians.  

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Omar6741

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October 21, 2019 - 9:11 pm

farooq17 said
 One point I would like to make is the fact that the English translation of the Qur’an uses the name “Jesus.” The original Arabic text, however, uses “Isa” which in the Semitic tongue is no different than “Yesu” an abbreviation for “Yehoshua” in Hebrew or “Joshua” in English. Please forgive any typos. This is my first post…  

Just regarding this passage, I would like to point out that “‘Isa” is in fact a different name than “Yeshu'”; one is not a version of the other. The key difference, which frstrates any attempt to derive “‘Isa” from Yeshu'” is in the position of the ‘ayin.

Warm Regards,

O.

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October 26, 2019 - 6:25 am

Once again, Shalom or Salaam everyone! I am so grateful and appreciative of the many wonderful responses that I received from my post. Thank you very much! My reply to all of the following posts, unfortunately, is that I strongly disagree. The main reason being that all of the responses are typically dogmatic from the Judaeo-Christian perspective rather than spiritual or even historical/cultural for that matter. I will go into further detail in the next post. But, for now, let me respond simply to that last post which was not factual. Aramaic/Hebrew and Arabic are essentially the same language based on the fact that the culture and the people who spoke these languages when the Bible and the Qur’ân were being written were essentially the same people living relatively in proximity to each other.

The Holy Qur’ân refers to Jesus as “‘Isa” which in Latin can also be spelled as “Eesa.” Actually, his proper name Eesa in Arabic is Esau in Hebrew; classical Yeheshua, which the Christian nations of the West latinised as Jesus. 

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godspell

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October 26, 2019 - 7:04 am

Well, if those are all the same language, because the people who created them lived in close proximity to each other, doesn’t it logically follow that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the same religion?

🙂

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October 26, 2019 - 7:54 pm

To be direct “godspell” or “gospel” in modern English or in qur’ânic language “Injil”…..absolutely Judaism, Christianity and al-Islam are the same religion!! What makes the difference is time, geography, culture (including languages) and most importantly — M.O.N.E.Y! Religion is big money and dividing humanity is more profitable than uniting humanity. Now, the B.I.G. money comes from marketing a product, and you can’t make a profit unless you prove that the product that you are selling is “unique.” And in Christianity, that is precisely why Christians refer to Jesus as the “Unique” Son of God. This is also true of the Bible which is promoted as “the (only) Word.” But, such belief or dogma only causes division and it doesn’t really answer the question of how can Jews, Christians and Muslims co-exist peacefully.

So, in close, Jesus was a Jewish Palestinian Arab (as Prophet Muhammad was also an Arab) who spoke Aramaic which eventually developed into Hebrew and finally Arabic the youngest of these three Semetic languages — i.e. Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic. That’s why early Jesus traditions in Aramaic come first and then were translated into Greek (i.e. the language of the Roman Empire) as we now have in the New Testament — for example: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” Then, finally, we have the final revelation or installment from the OT & NT combined called the Qur’ân in Arabic or the Final Testament (FT). You can see the pattern linguistically, historically and religiously why Judaism (Aramaic/Hebrew = OT) came first, then Christianity (Greek = NT) and lastly Islam (Arabic = Qur’ân or FT). If you can see the trees beyond the fog and rise above dogma, Jesus of the New Testament and Final Testament are one and the same person. Likewise, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the same religion. Thank you…

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godspell

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October 27, 2019 - 9:01 am

I agree we should rise above dogma, but I question whether religion can exist without some dogma.  Judaism doesn’t accept Jesus or Muhammad as being messengers of God.  Christianity doesn’t accept Muhammad as the greatest and final prophet.  Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as anything other than a secondary figure in Allah’s plan (doesn’t even accept he was crucified, which is arguably the one most certain piece of information we have about him).

You’re accusing me of dogma, but I think you’ve misunderstood.  I do not believe any of these individuals spoke to God.  I don’t think God works like that.   Religion is a tool, that we mainly misuse.  Jesus spoke to us of peace and love–and we respond with war and hate.  

Obviously (and many have said this), the ‘People of the Book’ should all love and respect each other, but each regards the other two as pretenders and rivals.  But even more, should we not regard all religions as one?  Don’t they all represent the same aspiration to touch the divine, to transcend our petty existences, to learn how to live properly?  I feel no less regard for the other faiths of this planet.  All have something to teach all of the others.

But regrettably, all have dogma getting in the way of that exchange.  

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godspell

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October 27, 2019 - 9:02 am

PS: My forum name is taken from the musical Godspell, the title of which is a pun, based on how ‘gospel’ (good news) sounds like the English/Germanic words ‘god’ and ‘spell’.  Just FYI.  😉

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Robert
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October 27, 2019 - 9:22 am
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godspell

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October 27, 2019 - 3:29 pm

It’s still a pun, but thanks, whoever you are.  Bright fame?  😉

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brenmcg

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October 27, 2019 - 6:25 pm

farooq17 said
…..absolutely Judaism, Christianity and al-Islam are the same religion!! What makes the difference is time, geography, culture … 

The three are the same but different. The Holy Trinity of religions; Judaism the father and source; Christianity the son; Islam the Holy Spirit (Jibril).

All the same one religion but Judaism not= Christianity not= Islam.

 

If you can see the trees beyond the fog and rise above dogma, Jesus of the New Testament and Final Testament are one and the same person.  

The hypostatic union.

Jesus, god in the New Testament and man in the Final Testament are united in one person.

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