I tend to agree with you, but I think an argument could be made with the following verses.
Mark 8:29, Peter says that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus seems to confirm that view.
Then, in Mark 12: 28-37, Jesus first says in verse 29, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Then he goes on to indicate in verse 35-37 that “Christ” (who is himself) is the “Lord” of David and that the Lord existed at least since the time of David. Who he also identified as God back in verse 29.
Combine this with Mark 9:37, and…well.
[edit: I also don’t know Greek. I read Lord and see Lord. I know there are different Greek words that mean different things, but all translate to Lord. Not sure if that’s happening here.]
This may be a crazy attempt to reconcile. But it stood out to me as I read through Mark. Also, for transparency, I doubt the existence of God and strongly doubt the Bible as being anything other than man’s attempt to describe who they understand God to be rather than any divine revelation of itself to man. But I also come from a fundamental Christian childhood and am in the middle deconstructing my faith. Not sure why I felt the need to add this.
JoeWelch said
I doubt the existence of God and strongly doubt the Bible as being anything other than man’s attempt to describe who they understand God to be rather than any divine revelation of itself to man. But I also come from a fundamental Christian childhood and am in the middle deconstructing my faith. Not sure why I felt the need to add this.
Hi Joseph,
My own background is protestant (born and raised), and having converted to Eastern Orthodoxy in December 2016 after 5 years as a Catechumen (inquiring into and studying the Orthodox Faith).
On the question of the Divine Inspiration of The Holy Scriptures, please see my post here:
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On the question of the Divinity of Christ in the Gospels, The Gospel of John, which is considered the most Mystical of all Four Gospels, makes clear and brings to light those things which are more hidden in the other Three Gospels.
The first ‘EGO EIMI’ (I AM) in The Gospel of John is The Lord’s dialogue with Saint Photini at Jacob’s well.
Yet all Four Gospels are saying the very same thing:
For many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM The Christ; and shall deceive many – Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM; and shall deceive many – Mark 13:6
And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM – Luke 21:8
Please do take a look at the first few patterns I posted on the link above, in particular: {I AM, Worship, Name of God}
Here is the first one (I AM):
There are exactly 40 times God speaks the words ‘I AM’ in the Greek New Testament Scriptures:
The Deity of Christ | ‘EGO EIMI’ (I AM ) | 40 instances
Matthew
1. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good courage; [I AM 1]; fear not. Matthew 14:27
2. [I AM 2] The God of Abraham, and The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob? God is not The God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32
3. For many shall come in My Name, saying, [I AM 3] The Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:5
Mark
4. For they all saw Him, and were troubled. And immediately He talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: [I AM 4]; fear not. Mark 6:50
5. For many shall come in My Name, saying, [I AM 5]; and shall deceive many. Mark 13:6
6. And Jesus said, [I AM 6]: and ye shall see The Son of man sitting on The Right of Power, and coming in the clouds of Heaven. Mark 14:62
Luke
7. And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My Name, saying, [I AM 7]; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luke 21:8
8. Then said they all, Art Thou then The Son of God? And He said unto them, Ye say that [I AM 8]. Luke 22:70
9. Behold My Hands and My Feet, that [I AM 9]: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have. Luke 24:39
John (23 instances)
10. Jesus saith unto her, [I AM 10] that speak unto thee. John 4:26
11. But He saith unto them, [I AM 11]; fear not. John 6:20
12. And Jesus said unto them, [I AM 12] The Bread of Life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst. John 6:35
13. The Jews then murmured at Him, because He said, [I AM 13] The Bread which came down from The Heaven. John 6:41
14. [I AM 14] The Bread of Life. John 6:48
15. [I AM 15] The Living Bread which came down from The Heaven: if any man eat of This Bread, he shall live for ever: and The Bread that I will give is My Flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 6:51
16. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, [I AM 16] The Light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light of Life. John 8:12
17. [I AM 17] One that bear witness of Myself, and the Father that sent Me beareth witness of me. John 8:18
18. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that [I AM 18], ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
19. Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up The Son of man, then shall ye know that [I AM 19], and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things. John 8:28
20. Jesus said unto them, Amin, Amin, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [I AM 20]. John 8:58
21. Then said Jesus unto them again, Amin, Amin, I say unto you, [I AM 21] The Door of the sheep. John 10:7
22. [I AM 22] The Door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9
23. [I AM 23] The Good Shepherd: The Good Shepherd giveth His Life for the sheep. John 10:11
24. [I AM 24] The Good Shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine. John 10:14
25. Jesus said unto her, [I AM 25] The Resurrection, and The Life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25
26. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that [I AM 26]. John 13:19
27. Jesus saith unto Him, [I AM 27] The Way, The Truth, and The Life: no man cometh unto The Father, but by Me. John 14:6
28. [I AM 28] The True Vine, and My Father is The Husbandman. John 15:1
29. [I AM 29] The Vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. John 15:5
30. They answered Him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, [I AM 30]. And Judas also, which betrayed Him, stood with them. John 18:5
31. As soon then as He had said unto them, [I AM 31], they went backward, and fell to the ground. John 18:6
32. Jesus answered, I have told you that [I AM 32]: if therefore ye seek Me, let these go their way: John 18:8
Acts
33. And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, [I AM 33] Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:5
34. For [I AM 34] with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. Acts 18:10
35. And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, [I AM 35] Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. Acts 22:8
36. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, [I AM 36] Jesus whom thou persecutest. Acts 26:15
Apocalypse
37. [I AM 37] Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8
38. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; [I AM 38] The First and The Last: Revelation 1:17
39. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that [I AM 39] which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23
40. I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in The Churches. [I AM 40] The Root and The Offspring of David, and The Bright and Morning Star. Revelation 22:16
Robert said
..when one views this verse as part of the larger structure of the gospel.
Yes, it is a gross error of western scholarship (both religious and secular) to attempt to understand The Gospels independent of each other or the other Scriptures (especially the Greek Septuagint), or based on the faulty framework of textual scholarship and its assumptions, or apart from the Patristics (Church Fathers).
For example the very notion of “high” and “low” christologies in The Scriptures is misguided and leads to erroneous conclusions.
Rather than the distinction that academia, textual scholars, etc. makes between so called “high and low” christology in the Scriptures, what we find in all Four Gospels is Absolute Christology -> The Son (‘The One Lord’) is homoousios (Consubstantial) with The Father (The One God).
‘One God‘ (εις θεος : EIS THEOS) is a Specific Title for The Father.
‘One Lord‘ (εις κυριος : EIS KYRIOS) is a Specific Title for The Son.
Just as The Father is Lord (KYRIOS), The Son is God (THEOS).
This is the usage we find in both the Scriptures (Ephesians 4:5, Ephesians 4:6, etc.) and in the Nicene Constantinopolitan Creed.
Compare Exodus 3:14 (Septuagint) ‘EGO EIMI O ON‘ with the Apocalypse (Revelation 1:8) in the Greek. The same four words ‘EGO EIMI O ON’ (I – AM – THE – ONE WHO IS) occur in both these verses.
Although it is at times hidden in Matthew, Mark, Luke but made very clear in The Gospel of John, all Four Gospels are saying the same thing.
The ‘EGO EIMI’ s are of primary importance to understanding The Christology of The Gospels.
Observe the following two constructs which are each common to Three of The Four Gospels:
CONSTRUCT ONE | MY NAME -> Ego Eimi (I AM) | {Matthew, Mark, Luke}
(1) For many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM The Christ; and shall deceive many – Matthew 24:5 (#3 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
(2) For many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM; and shall deceive many – Mark 13:6 (#5 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
(3) And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in MY NAME, saying, I AM – Luke 21:8 (#7 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
CONSTRUCT TWO | Fear not; Ego Eimi (I AM) | {Matthew, Mark, John, Apocalypse}
(1) But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Take courage; I AM; fear not – Matthew 14:27 (#1 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
(2) For they all saw Him, and were troubled. And immediately He talked with them, and saith unto them, Take courage: I AM; fear not – Mark 6:50 (#4 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
(3) But He saith unto them, I AM; fear not – John 6:20 (#11 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
(4) And when I saw Him, I fell at His Feet as dead. And He laid His Right Hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM The First and The Last – Revelation 1:17 (#38 of The Forty ‘EGO EIMI’s)
Robert said
As for 8,29, the Messiah was not traditionally thought of as divine so the question is whether or not and to what degree did Mark have a more exalted view of the Messiah.
I mentioned 8:29 to first show that Jesus does indirectly claim to be Christ so that I could then use Mark 12:28-37 to show Jesus saying, Christ is Lord, God is Lord, Lord is one. Therefore, Jesus is God and one with God (the Father).
This might be a stretch, though. And I don’t understand all the Greek, so my thoughts here might be way off.
JoeWelch said
This might be a stretch, though. And I don’t understand all the Greek, so my thoughts here might be way off.
I mentioned 8:29 to first show that Jesus does indirectly claim to be Christ so that I could then use Mark 12:28-37 to show Jesus saying, Christ is Lord, God is Lord, Lord is one. Therefore, Jesus is God and one with God (the Father).
This is not at all a stretch. The Holy Scriptures have a cascading structure which is consistent with Trinitarian Theology.
You can see the same cascading structure in The Confession of Faith (The Nicene Constantinopolitan Creed):
One God -> The Father -> Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible
One Lord -> The Son -> True God of True God -> By Whom all things were made
The Holy Spirit -> The Lord -> The Giver of Life
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Robert said The Greek word κύριος (Lord) is indeed the same but it is a very flexible word with a wide range of meaning.
It is true that the words KYRIOS (Lord), or PROSKUNEO (Worship), and even THEOS (God), can have some elasticity. Language can easily obscure meanings due to ambiguities. Moreover human language has obvious limitations when dealing with the metaphysical as the vast majority of words deal with tangible things within creation & the cosmos.
Thus we need to consider not only at words but the ontological implications of passages in Scripture. This requires we view multiple passages as linked together and without assuming the framework of “textual criticism”. But wrong conclusions can also be drawn from incorrectly grouping passages – and this again comes back to which hermeneutical framework and pre-suppositions we subscribe to. We can distinguish between three very different and broad categories – from one extreme to the other, they are:
Textual Criticism / Sola Scriptura (Protestantism) / Patristics (Church Fathers & The Seven Ecumenical Councils).
Each of these make very different assumptions about the text of The Scriptures and have different approaches and yield very different results.
The Pre-Existence of The Son is explicitly stated in The Gospel of John – especially in chapter one, but we see it also in the other Gospels:
‘Before Abraham was, I AM’ – John 8:58 is implying the very same thing ontologically as the following passages:
‘If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?’ – Matthew 22:45
‘David therefore himself calleth Him Lord; and whence is He then his son?’ – Mark 12:37
‘David therefore calleth Him Lord, how is He then his son?’ – Luke 20:44
The Two Natures understanding of The Hypostatic Union (The LOGOS became Flesh ‘ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο’ John 1:14) which is ** you do not have permission to see this link ** is exactly what we see in the Holy Scriptures.
The Two Titles of The Lord, (1) Son of God with respect to His Divine Nature and (2) Son of man with respect to His Human Nature (κατὰ σάρκα / according to the flesh) are used throughout the New Testament Holy Scriptures.
‘Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (κατὰ σάρκα)’ – Romans 1:3
Likewise, the Title ‘THEOTOKOS’ (Birth-Giver of God) which was dogmatized at ** you do not have permission to see this link ** simply makes explicit the Christological implications of the words ‘The Mother of My Lord’ (η μητηρ του κυριου μου) found in Luke 1:43
JoeWelch said
I mentioned 8:29 to first show that Jesus does indirectly claim to be Christ so that I could then use Mark 12:28-37 to show Jesus saying, Christ is Lord, God is Lord, Lord is one. Therefore, Jesus is God and one with God (the Father).
This might be a stretch, though. And I don’t understand all the Greek, so my thoughts here might be way off.
Also notice Luke’s version. Luke has moved the “Greatest commandment” pericope to another section, so his “Who’s son is the Messiah” is immediately preceded by the “Marriage at the resurrection” pericope. The original version of this pericope in Matthew/Mark however does not equate the Lord with God.
Luke however understands the necessity of this so adds it into his version of “Marriage at the resurrection”. Luke 20:37 “for he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”, and so maintains this christological claim – the Lord is God, the messiah is Lord.
Silouan Mathew said
Observe the following two constructs which are each common to Three of The Four Gospels:
CONSTRUCT ONE | MY NAME -> Ego Eimi (I AM) | {Matthew, Mark, Luke}
Also in John.
John 3:18 “but whoever does not believe has been condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only-begotten son of God”
John 8:24 “if you do not believe that ego eimi you will indeed die in your sins.”
brenmcg said
Also in John.
John 3:18 “but whoever does not believe has been condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only-begotten son of God”
John 8:24 “if you do not believe that ego eimi you will indeed die in your sins.”
Yes, you are correct. I didn’t notice this one before.
Thank you for pointing this out!
John 8:24 “if you do (A) not believe that (B1) EGO EIMI (C1) you will indeed die in your sins.”
John 3:18 “but whoever does not believe (C2) has been condemned already because they have (A) not believed in (B2) THE NAME of The Only-Begotten Son of God”
(A) not believe -> (B) { EGO EIMI, THE NAME } -> (C) die in sins, has been condemened
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