CEJ said
JAS said
Perhaps an atheist who is as aggressive in his or her atheistic views as a fundamentalist Christian is in his or his Christian views. (As such, it would be a designation of an equivalent degree of adherence and perhaps promotion of those respective views.) That is why I used the term evangelical, which I think works better as one who spreads his or her views.
The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the “opium of the masses”—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
— Albert Einstein
I live in a country where 80% of evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. Wish I didn’t have to worry about them destroying the country and could spend more time hearing the music of spheres.
I live in a country where 80% of evangelicals voted for Donald Trump. Wish I didn’t have to worry about them destroying the country and could spend more time hearing the music of spheres.
Yeah “fanatical atheists” aren’t even close to being a problem. I wish. I have relatives who would be horrified by swastikas and jackboots but if you couch it all in terms of Christian nationalism, God and country, would rah rah an American theocracy without hesitation.
cstu said
chelz84 said
I wish I knew why the idea that Jesus never existed is more satisfying to them than the idea that Jesus did exist but was not at all who modern Christians believe him to be?
The appeal is that if Jesus didn’t exist it automatically renders all of Christianity as false. It makes it all simple for them so they don’t have to think too much about it. Atheists can be lazy, too.
The question is, in what respect do these figures, with which we are presented in those later gospel accounts, bear any resemblance to a first century itinerant Galilean Jewish charismatic. That question [short of any source material from the 30s CE ever being discovered] cannot be answered.
Flosshilda said: The question is, in what respect do these figures, with which we are presented in those later gospel accounts, bear any resemblance to a first century itinerant Galilean Jewish charismatic. That question [short of any source material from the 30s CE ever being discovered] cannot be answered.
Would even a document from the 30s CE be convincing if it was seen as being from a Christian source? Would a document from an independent source of the time stating that Pilate executed Jesus of Nazareth be convincing about the full story? I think the obvious answer is of course not. What document could possibly grant the gospels sufficient authority to put an end to debate?
JAS said
Flosshilda said: The question is, in what respect do these figures, with which we are presented in those later gospel accounts, bear any resemblance to a first century itinerant Galilean Jewish charismatic. That question [short of any source material from the 30s CE ever being discovered] cannot be answered.
Would even a document from the 30s CE be convincing if it was seen as being from a Christian source? Would a document from an independent source of the time stating that Pilate executed Jesus of Nazareth be convincing about the full story? I think the obvious answer is of course not. What document could possibly grant the gospels sufficient authority to put an end to debate?
Any document that did provide evidence of a real human Jesus that was found would be considered a forgery by people who don’t want to believe he existed. I would prefer that Jesus never existed, but there’s no other logical explanation for the way Christianity developed than an actual human was killed by the Roman government in Jerusalem.
The question is, in what respect do these figures, with which we are presented in those later gospel accounts, bear any resemblance to a first century itinerant Galilean Jewish charismatic. That question [short of any source material from the 30s CE ever being discovered] cannot be answered.
I think we have glimpses of what the historical Jesus would have taught. But the person? Completely gone.
CEJ said
The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the “opium of the masses”—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
— Albert Einstein
Good quote. Some atheists were badly harmed by toxic dogma shoved down their throats since early childhood.
The concepts of thought-crime and unforgivable sin are pure unmitigated torture, hell on earth, for people with OCD and anxiety issues.
When they leave the fold they become “missionaries”, counter-apologists or even therapists.
I recommend to read the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** written by Dr. Valerie Tarico and Dr. Marlene Winell about religious trauma. The life of many of them still revolves around religion, albeit from the opposite point of view. The idea that the twofaced saviour-boogeyman (the “Christ” who buried the historical galilean preacher) may not have existed at all gives to some of them peace of mind. I am not a mythicist like Richard Carrier but I can understand their behavior.
mb1980 said
CEJ said
The fanatical atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the “opium of the masses”—cannot hear the music of the spheres.
— Albert Einstein
Good quote. Some atheists were badly harmed by toxic dogma shoved down their throats since early childhood.
The concepts of thought-crime and unforgivable sin are pure unmitigated torture, hell on earth, for people with OCD and anxiety issues.
When they leave the fold they become “missionaries”, counter-apologists or even therapists.
I recommend to read the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** written by Dr. Valerie Tarico and Dr. Marlene Winell about religious trauma. The life of many of them still revolves around religion, albeit from the opposite point of view. The idea that the twofaced saviour-boogeyman (the “Christ” who buried the historical galilean preacher) may not have existed at all gives to some of them peace of mind. I am not a mythicist like Richard Carrier but I can understand their behavior.
Thanks for the link, mb.
mb1980 said
Good quote. Some atheists were badly harmed by toxic dogma shoved down their throats since early childhood.
The concepts of thought-crime and unforgivable sin are pure unmitigated torture, hell on earth, for people with OCD and anxiety issues.
When they leave the fold they become “missionaries”, counter-apologists or even therapists.
I recommend to read the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** written by Dr. Valerie Tarico and Dr. Marlene Winell about religious trauma. The life of many of them still revolves around religion, albeit from the opposite point of view. The idea that the twofaced saviour-boogeyman (the “Christ” who buried the historical galilean preacher) may not have existed at all gives to some of them peace of mind. I am not a mythicist like Richard Carrier but I can understand their behavior.
I’ve been told exactly that by someone who suffered through it. I consider it child abuse.
Many atheists look at it like recovering alcoholics who want to help others escape addiction. But the “damaged atheist” trope is wildly overstated. In my experience most self-identified atheists reached the conclusion after a long intensive period of thinking and questioning.
And too many people are just happy to have someone to point to as a villain and a cause of all problems in their lives. There are atheists who feel that all of the bad things in the world have been caused by very religious people, and very religious people who feel that all of the bad things in the world have been caused by people who were not religious enough. It is very rare that people can place any of the blame on people who are just like they are; it must be someone who is very different.
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