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Does Jesus believe Marriage become Obsolete in the Kingdom?
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Hngerhman

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February 14, 2020 - 3:07 pm

Taking it out of the Matthean context, and moving it back into a Markan context:

“And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebul, and by the ruler of the demons he casts out demons.” And he called them to him, and spoke to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but his end has come.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:22-26‬ ‭NRSV‬‬
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godspell

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February 14, 2020 - 3:27 pm

Still written three decades or more later. 

The interesting thing is they say Beelzebul–a pagan deity referenced in the OT (variant name for Baal), who was sometimes considered a high-ranking demon by Jews, who couldn’t acknowledge any God other than Yahweh.  And Jesus insists on calling Beelzebul Satan.  Jesus was reading the same books they were (I believe he could read, but either way, he clearly knew the source material pretty well).  Satan isn’t a chief devil in the OT, but a servant of God, a sort of prosecutor-general of heaven.  Obviously there would be different takes on him in the larger Jewish literature, as there are for all such beings in all mythologies (Loki is sometimes a sympathetic character). 

So did Jesus have a different idea of who Satan is, perhaps influenced by John and the Essenes–or did that idea develop later, and they put it in his mouth.  In other words, Mark has the older story, where Jesus is talking the same language as his accusers–which makes more sense–but he doesn’t think Christians who aren’t Jewish will understand .  He’s trying once again to translate between cultures.  Make it all fit together.  Beelzebul, Satan–same thing.  But I’m not sure Jesus would have agreed. 

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Hngerhman

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February 14, 2020 - 3:44 pm

godspell said
Still written three decades or more later. 

Completely with you there.

 

godspell said

The interesting thing is they say Beelzebul–a pagan deity referenced in the OT (variant name for Baal), who was sometimes considered a high-ranking demon by Jews, who couldn’t acknowledge any God other than Yahweh.  And Jesus insists on calling Beelzebul Satan.  Jesus was reading the same books they were (I believe he could read, but either way, he clearly knew the source material pretty well).  Satan isn’t a chief devil in the OT, but a servant of God, a sort of prosecutor-general of heaven.  Obviously there would be different takes on him in the larger Jewish literature, as there are for all such beings in all mythologies (Loki is sometimes a sympathetic character). 

So did Jesus have a different idea of who Satan is, perhaps influenced by John and the Essenes–or did that idea develop later, and they put it in his mouth.  In other words, Mark has the older story, where Jesus is talking the same language as his accusers–which makes more sense–but he doesn’t think Christians who aren’t Jewish will understand .  He’s trying once again to translate between cultures.  Make it all fit together.  Beelzebul, Satan–same thing.  But I’m not sure Jesus would have agreed.   

Not to sidestep the issue of who Beelzebul is and who Satan is and whether they are identical, but I do find it interesting that Jesus is quoted as intimating strongly (without saying it explicitly, but close) that there is a leader of the demons. Whatever the name of the entity is, the entity has some sort of sway or dominion over the demons.

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godspell

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February 14, 2020 - 4:55 pm

I think most people who believed in such entities believed there were more and less powerful demons.  A hierarchy–but to make one the King of all demons, would be somehow equating that entity with God, which for a devout Jew, is a serious problem.  For the pagan converts (some of whose ancestors might have worshiped Beelzebul) no problem at all. 

Jesus didn’t believe Hell was a place people went to.  I’m not sure if he believed there was some infernal realm demons hailed from (it’s possible), he definitely did believe demons tempted and maddened human beings, but I don’t think he saw them as fallen angels ruled by His Satanic Majesty.  We tend to project later Christian beliefs back onto him.  Well, so did the gospel authors, at times.  But we’re projecting stuff onto them as well. 

Btw. Be very careful not to say Beelzebul three times in succession.  Unless you’re Winona Ryder.  And if you are, can I have your number?  (Hey, stranger things have happened.)

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Hngerhman

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February 14, 2020 - 5:25 pm

Ha. If you’re into Wynona Ryder, I am very unlikely your type…

In terms of demon hierarchy: I don’t follow that a top demon, or a ruler of demons, would be tantamount to God. Probably my ignorance – is this in Dr Pagels’s work (I’ve not read that one)?

I agree with you that there are a lot of things that later Christians, including the evangelists, retrojected onto Jesus. I just don’t know where to come down on this one – it would seem entirely sensible to me that Jesus might have said and meant something very close to the above about Beelzebul(b)/Satan. Sensible, however, does not historical make.

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godspell

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February 14, 2020 - 6:38 pm

Wynonna is a Judd, and I was more into her sister, but it’s all moot now.

It’s not about what you or I would think–I simply don’t believe Jews of that period thought in terms of God having a powerful but still weaker demonic counterpart–Morgoth to his Iluvatar.  An inferior rival is still a rival, but Yahweh has none.  

I think Jesus was simply responding to his Jewish detractors as a Jew, making a lively counter-argument–why would a demon-lord undermine his underlings by letting a mere mortal oust them?  Since we’re not talking about a being who is all-powerful (over demons at least) that would lead to rebellion and chaos in the ranks.  A house divided against itself cannot stand.  

Is this a conclusive argument?  How can there be a conclusive argument about beings that only exist in our imaginations?  Is what I think every time I read one of those “Who would win?  Darkseid or Thanos?” type threads on Quora.

(The answer is Darkseid, because Kirby outranks Starlin.  Box office returns don’t count.)

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Hngerhman

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February 14, 2020 - 10:18 pm

godspell said
Wynonna is a Judd, and I was more into her sister, but it’s all moot now.

It’s not about what you or I would think–I simply don’t believe Jews of that period thought in terms of God having a powerful but still weaker demonic counterpart–Morgoth to his Iluvatar.  An inferior rival is still a rival, but Yahweh has none.  

Now I have “Why Not Me” echoing in my head…

I’m not grasping the reason you don’t believe that Jesus would think there was a leader of demons if there were demons. Like many other times we’ve discussed granular topics, you often have a very interesting underlying rationale. I just don’t have my finger on it here.

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godspell

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February 14, 2020 - 10:43 pm

Okay, let’s try again–the problem is that our popular culture is full of All-powerful and perpetually scheming Demon Kings, and not just Satan.  But to Jesus, that’s not who Beelzebul would be.  If he was, then Jesus’ argument makes no sense.  If all demons are at Mr. B’s beck and call, and he says “Let this punk Jesus exorcise you, fool the suckers into following him, to further my evil plan” they’d be like “Okay, boss!”  

In this understanding, there are more and less powerful and influential spirits.  A loose-knit mob with petty bosses, not a disciplined army.  This is perfectly in keeping with what people believed then.  It’s more anarchic–more like what’s described in C.S. Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters.  (Lewis being influenced by his reading of scripture, which he correctly sees is not at all like the modern image of Satan and his willing thralls).  They will defer to a more powerful spirit, but not unconditionally.  They are not united under a single unquestioned authority like the Emperor–more like a horde of barbaric nomads, or pirates (both familiar concepts to people then) who will disobey or abandon their leader if they feel he’s not playing straight with them.  They have no loyalties to each other.  They are beings of pure malice and discord, and they don’t make plans.  That’s why madmen are assumed to have a demon.  

This is Jesus’ argument, made to counter the (apparently common) accusation that his miracles come from the demonic realm, not from God.  That if you could use devils to cast out devils, that would split their ranks, make it impossible for these already disordered creatures to work together.  A house divided.  

Now I’m inferring to beat the band here, and there’s no avoiding that.  But I think this is more consistent with what someone of Jesus’ background is likely to have believed, and again, his argument makes no sense if he’s talking about Satan in the later sense of an unquestioned king of hell, God’s opposite number.  To Jesus, God has no opposites.  His authority is unquestioned in all realms.  Beelzebul’s grip over other demons is conditional and easily lost.  He can’t make them act against their own interests, and they are interested in possessing humans.  

If Jesus believed in a King of Hell, who commands all evil spirits, he sure did a good job hiding it.  The stories about him and demons sound more like later Muslim stories about djinn–not surprisingly, since there are many commonalities to Middle Eastern superstitions about such creatures.  

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Hngerhman

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February 15, 2020 - 6:49 am
Thank you. I knew there was an interesting underlying view I wasn’t privy to – appreciate you unpacking a bit. I think I understand your argument, and I think I see where I was slipping past you.
 
I agree with you that the story could be seen broadly compatible with a minimally confederated militia of demons. However, it’s similarly compatible with the maximal Satan-as-demon-king interpretation as well.
 
The kingdom/house divided language might not work if there’s an absolute demon monarch (said demon king could command them to do anything he wants, under any ruse or guise whatever, and they’d reform as a unified whole post the exercise). I agree.
 
Unfortunately, the “kingdom or house divided” metaphor similarly doesn’t work under a headless, loose confederation scenario either. The primary terms of the subject – kingdom or house – would break down under that interpretation, leaving us with nonsense.
– Kingdom = a unity, hierarchical, with a head
– House (1st century context) = a unity, hierarchical, with a head
So, I don’t think the minimal organization thesis protects the saying’s sense. Unfortunately.
 
And your thesis above makes it clear to me now that we were not talking about the same thing with respect to the qualifications for a lead demon. To clarify my prior puzzlement (is that an oxymoron?), I’m not coming from the or a later Satan angle. I’m coming from the angle of internal demonic organizational structure. That would come along with quite an interesting HR department…
 
With respect to the power of the lead demon, it wouldn’t need to be as powerful or half as powerful or 1/10 as powerful as Yahweh to be lead demon. The relevant relative power relation is lead demon to underlings, not lead demon to God. The lead demon only need be sufficiently more powerful than the lesser demons, entirely irrespective of how far from God’s might it is. On a logarithmic scale of power, where God is represented at 100, minerals are 0, people are 10, lesser demons are 15 -> king demon could be a 30, rule the demon hoard and still couldn’t carry Yahweh’s gym shoes.
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godspell

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February 15, 2020 - 7:11 am

It’s very hard to know exactly what Jesus meant–we don’t even know exactly what his accusers meant.  Or if he really was accused.  We just know this is a story early Christians had heard and believed in.  And we can be pretty sure that their ideas of devils were already quite different from what Jesus believed.  

Think about it from his point of view.  He really doesn’t talk about devils that much.  Most of his faith healing isn’t related to exorcism.  He doesn’t seem to believe that the main problem is Beelzebul, Satan, evil spirits, whatever.  And those stories are all really hard to imagine happening in real life (whereas we know faith healings occur today, even if we have different ideas about how they work, when they work, if they work).  

Yeah, Jesus could have–and would have–talked to people who were believed to have evil spirits.  Because he’d talk to anyone–he was especiallly interested in those who were in some way despised or shunned by society.  The last shall be first.  And just talking to and listening to people who are mentally ill can help them sometimes, as was established much later.  Not widely understood then.  So it could give you a rep.  Both good and bad.  

We have every reason to believe all the exorcism stories are very heavily embellished.  Perhaps this began very early, perhaps not (Bart questions whether Jesus even had a reputation as a miracle worker).  But we can agree that it seems unlikely Jesus said some words and then a herd of swine spontaneously ran over a cliff into the sea.  Pigs are smart.

What does ring true is Jesus doing exorcisms, and then being accused of witchcraft.  And he has to come up with an argument as to why that isn’t true.  It’s going to be based on his understanding of what demons are, and he believes they are disordered creatures who are sometimes the cause of disordered behavior among humans (a truly ancient belief, common to many if not all cultures, going back far into prehistory).  

I don’t need to know exactly what he thought to know that the underlying story being told doesn’t make any sense as later interpreted.  I don’t think Jesus believed the problem was Satan.  I think he believed the problem is that by being sinners, living in a sinful world, we let demons take control of us.  

Look around you.  Isn’t that true? 

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tompicard

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February 15, 2020 - 10:56 am

Hngerhman said

Granting a conceptual distinction between Kingdom and resurrection, does a temporal distinction (to do the work) turn on the ordering of Kingdom first, then resurrection?

 

well since I brought up the idea that Jesus may have differentiated ‘resurrection’ form ‘kingdom’ and  got a question about it, i decided to consider it some to see where it leads

 

First consider popular view of the kingdom vs popular view of the resurrection

both may be inscrutable and esoteric but I guess the resurrection is more sothe popular view of the kingdom is a world of no war, no hate, no misery, no injustice, maybe no poverty, maybe no sickness, etc. compare that to the popular view of resurrection – corpses arising re-animated  from their graves

Well in comparing those two concepts I think we (or 1st century Judeans) would probably say the ‘Kingdom’ is more believable idea than is ‘ resurrection’.

Note: I am not claiming Jesus exactly held either of these popular views, this is just an observation to start discussion of how he might have considered  either of these terms

 

Second let’s consider the participants in ‘resurrection’ and ‘kingdom’

It appears to me Jesus ministry consisted a lot in proclaiming the Kingdom and how to enter it, and who was preaching to ? obviously his contemporaries, I mean people who were living

Now consider who are participants in resurrection, lets look at the quote that has been previously cited Mark 12:18-27 who does he mention s participants: Abraham Isaac and Jacob, that is people who have died (left the earth)

 

Third, and getting to question above, which would come first, in Jesus view, well we see Jesus preached the nearness of the kingdom and he was explaining to those alive how to enter it, it is pretty obvious that if he made a differentiation of the terms then most likely thought the Kingdom would be the earlier     

 

Final thought/comment 

Did Paul think the same as far as timing goes?

LIKELY NO, He thought the resurrection had ALREADY STARTED, with Jesus, but he probably thought of Kingdom, if he spoke of it at all was a later event

 

Another final comment

I dont think I/we can really understand what Jesus thought about “the resurrection” there just isn’t enough evidence.. If you make the assumption Jesus understood the resurrection the same as Paul did well then of course you can say a lot more. I am just not willing to make that assumption

And another

does any of the above have any bearing on sex/marriage in the Kingdom – to be determined   

 

I will appreciate anyones thoughts  

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Hngerhman

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February 15, 2020 - 11:08 am

I really like the timing distinction between Jesus (kingdom first, resurrection second) and Paul (first fruits of resurrection, then kingdom and general resurrection).

If (for Jesus) the resurrection comes second, then would the pre-resurrection Kingdom thereby be in an incomplete transitional state? Again, making the same stipulations you are making.

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Hngerhman

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February 15, 2020 - 11:21 am

Putting aside 4Q521’s precise provenance, Q quotes it (or its doppelgänger) to John’s followers. In it, the nice things (signs) about the kingdom and the raising of the dead are conversationally implied to be reasonably coincident.

If the order of operations is different for Jesus than portrayed in 4Q521/Q, then one’s theory would need to account for it. I can see many maneuvers that would do it, but it does cause one to have to firewall Jesus in certain ways from early traditions that at least seem they could come from his milieu.

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tompicard

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February 15, 2020 - 5:58 pm

Hngerhman said
If (for Jesus) the resurrection comes second, then would the pre-resurrection Kingdom thereby be in an incomplete transitional state? Again, making the same stipulations you are making.  

as above I can’t say the scripture provides enough evidence on how Jesus viewed that time

 

yet that will not stop me from making personal speculations

which is

I dont think anyone today really believes in a literal resurrection – graves opening, deceased people returning to live with those currently alive on earth,

and further

I dont think anyone in 1st century Palestine did either [ you realize when I say no one, I dont mean   really no one but that it is probably approaching zero]

 

Is the Q521, question to me, well if so, I think 

1) it doesn’t look like a reference to the “general resurrection” – the “good news” preached to the poor, I think would more jive with coming “kingdom” the with coming “resurrection”

2) anyway it is apocalyptic preaching which isn’t necessarily expected to be literal

 

again all above is my opinion, others may dispute, I cannot really find scripture that specifically confirms that Jesus would or wouldn’t take verses such was these literal or not, only that in his own preaching he most assuredly is not averse to metaphors

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Stephen
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February 15, 2020 - 7:13 pm

I dont think anyone today really believes in a literal resurrection – graves opening, deceased people returning to live with those currently alive on earth,

Well if anyone wishes to seriously make this claim I invite them to go down to Georgia with me the next time I visit my family.

I dont think anyone in 1st century Palestine did either…

While Paul apparently did not have this view I think you can make the case that this came to be the view of the later communities.  Otherwise why have Jesus cook and eat a piece of fish?

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Hngerhman

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February 16, 2020 - 11:18 am

I can confirm the view that bodily resurrection is believed – and it’s not just the rural south (though that would be my area of expertise) but also scholars like NT Wright. It’s a minority position, but it ain’t fringe.

And in terms of 1st century Palestine, I cannot put forward precise numbers, and perhaps it was a minority position, but the author of Matthew (putting aside where exactly he was from, and whether he was Jewish) would disagree. And while not irrelevant, the question here is not how prevalent the view is in the overall gen pop, but did the subject of the gospels hold to it. Base rates are helpful argumentatively, but we’re deep into anecdotal evidence here when it comes to the early Jesus movement. At that time and place in history, almost no one was a Jesus follower, nor believed that Jesus was the messiah.

I agree completely that what we have of Jesus, what he said and what he thought, is pretty sparse. Especially if we want to build up a reconstruction of his entire metaphysical system. And he rarely if ever said, “Hey guys, this is precisely what I mean, and it’s literal or figurative.” At least not as it has come down to us. And he often spoke in parable, simile and metaphor. But he also often spoke literally. By what criteria do we decide the corner cases? It can’t be that what doesn’t make sense to us must therefore be metaphor – because easily ascertained portions of what appear to be his metaphysics do not make sense to us.

If (positing) he believed in the resurrection and that it came coincident with or after the Kingdom breaks in, and (positing) he believed that the resurrected persons are no longer gendered/sexed in the relevant way (like angels), then either there would be a two tiered form of existence (regular folks and resurrected folks), or the resurrected form is the form that all will take, or the resurrected folks will downconvert to regular folk. The last option seems incorrect, as does the first.

I’m stating it more strongly than I believe is fully demonstrable, as I agree it’s possible we don’t know enough of what Jesus thought here. I’m doing so in order to isolate what I see as the partial landscape of possible solutions that fit best with what we have. I, too, do not want to see Jesus to be saying nonsense either. But we have to allow that he may be.

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Stephen
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February 16, 2020 - 11:50 am

…what Jesus thought here…

Paul seems to have thought the resurrection body to be ungendered.  If this is what Jesus is saying this might have been part of the general apocalyptic p.o.v.  Do we know what the Essenes thought?  If I knew I can’t remember.

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godspell

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February 16, 2020 - 11:51 am

Jesus was figuring stuff out as he went along.  Just like the rest of us.  More questions than answers, and he put on a brave front for the disciples, but he knew very well he was whistling in the dark a lot of the time.  

Us moderns with our pampered privileged media-saturated lives who think we’re smarter than him–I gotta roll my eyes a bit.  So I will.  🙄

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godspell

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February 16, 2020 - 12:05 pm

Stephen said
I dont think anyone today really believes in a literal resurrection – graves opening, deceased people returning to live with those currently alive on earth,

Well if anyone wishes to seriously make this claim I invite them to go down to Georgia with me the next time I visit my family.

I dont think anyone in 1st century Palestine did either…

While Paul apparently did not have this view I think you can make the case that this came to be the view of the later communities.  Otherwise why have Jesus cook and eat a piece of fish?  

It was Friday?

It’s very hard to say what people literally believe in.  I mean, do you literally believe your great times a billion grandfather was a fish?   I believe in evolution by natural selection–it makes sense to me.  I see it in the world around me.  It’s still hard to get your mind around–and most people on the planet won’t even pretend to believe it.  Not just because of religion.  Because it’s just such a weird idea.  

Believing and knowing are different things, which is why we have different words.  But even what we know, from our material existences, can be endlessly questioned–hence Descartes, hence Berkeley, hence Hume.  Modern physics asks us whether the material world we perceive is anything like what we think it is.  

But it’s nice to see you’re willing to project what you think you know about the people you grew up with onto people who lived two thousand years ago, and whose religion was really nothing at all like what you know–another kind of evolution.  No way in hell ancient Jews would recognize modern Christians as their descendants.  Crazy goyim.

One of my European history professors kept telling us that we had to understand–it was different–back in the medieval era, and for a while afterwards.  People really did believe.  Nietzsche said “Gott ist Todt” not because he believed God had actually died, but that we’d stopped believing the way we once had.  Fundamentalism is basically an attempt to turn back the clock, go back to the old way of believing–but you can’t go home again.  

However, we shouldn’t assume everybody in the modern world is like that.  And we definitely shouldn’t assume about people who lived thousands of years ago in a region that gave birth to three of the most influential religions on earth.  

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Hngerhman

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February 16, 2020 - 1:48 pm

Stephen said
…what Jesus thought here…

Paul seems to have thought the resurrection body to be ungendered.  If this is what Jesus is saying this might have been part of the general apocalyptic p.o.v.  Do we know what the Essenes thought?  If I knew I can’t remember.  

I don’t know enough (read: I know very little) of what the Essenes, or the Qumran community (whether Essenes or not), thought. Perhaps others do?

The tie-in to Paul is very seductive here – especially given his interaction with Peter, James and the Jerusalem community (who most probably held to a similar metaphysics as Jesus). As much as I want to close the loop, the difficulty for me here is that Paul was also seemingly in disagreement with the Jerusalem community about some other key metaphysical issues (like gentile Kingdom entrance criteria). I’m not saying you are saying you’re tempted to use the Pauline analogy here – I’m only saying I can feel its pull.

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