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Evidence for Jesus
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gavriel

380 Posts
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March 2, 2019 - 1:55 pm
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gavriel

380 Posts
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March 2, 2019 - 1:59 pm

Matt2239 said

Rokyro said
Documentary evidence, indepdent attetestations, testimonials in relation to the closeness of the event, etc… don’t count for anything?

Yes, these things count for a lot.  So do basic, objective facts.  Why would you believe facts as cited in a book that appeared 10 years ago to a book that appeared 2000 years ago and remains in print?  One answer is authoritarianism.    

There are countless examples of modern scholars detecting ancient forgeries, despite the age of the writing examined and the age of the scholar’s writing. How?

The same principles extend to the existence of incorrect statements in the works of respected ancient historians. Why?

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BobSeidensticker

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March 22, 2019 - 1:37 am

Can anyone point me to a summary of the historicist (or whatever the opposite of mythicist is) argument? I realize Dr. Ehrman has written a book on the subject, but I’m looking for a short introduction in an article, blog post, or something similar. Thanks.

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Rthompsonmdog

26 Posts
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24
March 22, 2019 - 10:09 am

Here is a series of posts from 2016. I’m sure there are others.

The Gospels and the Existence of Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link **

Gospel Evidence that Jesus Existed ** you do not have permission to see this link **

Paul and the Historical Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link **

Paul’s Acquaintances: Jesus’ Disciples and Brother ** you do not have permission to see this link **

James the Brother of the Lord ** you do not have permission to see this link **

Carrier and James the Brother of Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link **

 

There are also collected posts on Mythicism ** you do not have permission to see this link **

and the Historical Jesus ** you do not have permission to see this link **

which may be helpful.

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RyanOchocki

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April 16, 2019 - 12:33 pm

Matt2239 said

The 6 million bibles in print, 2 billion modern followers of Jesus, and the 2000 years of consistent stories are very weighty evidence for all the natural and supernatural events in the bible.  Objectively speaking, those who doubt that Jesus of Nazareth ever lived are so far on the fringe that they’re right out there with those who say the moon walks were faked.    

Although I would agree that Jesus of Nazareth probably existed, the volume of extant bible copies and the number of people who believe the contents of the book have no bearing on whether the claims are historically accurate or true. This is simply a logical fallacy. Claims stand or fall on their own merit and evidence. The books of the bible are not evidence for the claims…they are the claims. One should not conflate the claim with the evidence in support of the claim. 

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crowe3

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April 21, 2019 - 4:51 pm

In terms of the OP, it documents that a group held this belief about Christus.  Jesus would not have referred to himself that way.  As for Pontius Pilate reference, etc. all that could be repeated stories from the group.  One would think these would be based on actual history but how much embellished and changed we don’t know.

IIRC Pliny the younger has a similar passage.

In terms of history, it is interesting to note the extent to which the Christ story was already developed at the time.

  

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godspell

1827 Posts
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April 21, 2019 - 7:54 pm

AndyB said
In terms of the OP, it documents that a group held this belief about Christus.  Jesus would not have referred to himself that way.  As for Pontius Pilate reference, etc. all that could be repeated stories from the group.  One would think these would be based on actual history but how much embellished and changed we don’t know.

IIRC Pliny the younger has a similar passage.

In terms of history, it is interesting to note the extent to which the Christ story was already developed at the time.

    

No, Jesus would not have referred to himself as Christus, or Christ, or God Jr.  And he’s long dead by the time Tacitus is writing.  Tacitus can’t very well look him up on Wikipedia.  Before Wikipedia (long before Tacitus) there used to be this series of reference books you could find in the library that listed people who were distinguished or influential in some way, but not necessarily famous.  I remember looking through it in high school.  I can’t remember what it was called.  I tried looking it up, and Google couldn’t find it.  It’ll come to me in the middle of the night, probably.  You see the problem.  (Does anybody remember what it was called?)

Tacitus’ problem is that he doesn’t know Christus’ real name, and doesn’t care.  He doesn’t have a copy of any gospel, or Paul’s epistles.  He can’t send a servant down to the local bookstore to find them.  And you know, they crucified so many people, it’s such a bore really……

Christus is a TITLE.  It refers to who they believe Jesus was.  It’s a bit like some WASPy aristocrat who doesn’t follow baseball saying “I hear the people worship some god named Bambino, whom they have proclaimed Sultan of Swat, whatever that means.”

Tacitus can’t be expected to know all this. The interesting question is how he even learned this much.  And the fact that he’s relating it to someone means that it’s still not widely known in his society.  That he actually has to explain this little bit of information he has to someone who doesn’t know about these Christians and their strange attachment to a crucified criminal.  

Point is, what kind of religion MAKES UP a god who got killed in such a degrading way–not in some distant nether-realm, but in the relatively recent past, by non-fictional civil servants?  That’s a hell of a work-around.  You don’t do that unless you have no other choice.  Because Jesus really did exist, and he really was crucified, and people really did believe he’d appeared to them after death (which we don’t have to believe happened to believe other people could believe it happened, and basically everyone had some belief in the supernatural then).  

People twist themselves into knots trying to find some influence in Mithras or Horus, and what they prove in the process is that they don’t know anything about Mithras or Horus.  They don’t read serious scholarly literature about mystery cults (which are called that for a reason), or Egyptian mythology.  They read books that mangle what knowledge we have about those reilgions to prove Jesus is just a rip-off.  Or that ‘dying and rising gods’ were a thing back then, which they were not.  

It’s amazing how little direct documentation we have of people who were hugely famous in their own lifetimes–Leonidas, Alexander, Cleopatra.  

Socrates left us no writings, and basically all we know about him we know from two of his pupils (who clearly put words in his mouth) and Aristophanes making fun of him in the Ancient Greek equivalent of an SNL skit.  He’s had a huge influence on the modern world, and not always a good one (since he reportedly loathed Democracy).  

We can and should question most of what we’re told about Jesus–but not that there was a Jesus.  It’s a waste of time, and an attack on serious historical scholarship.  

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Sahansdal

9 Posts
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28
May 9, 2019 - 6:04 pm

Rokyro said

All right then, moving the goalposts from something is true because of how many people it to how old a document is.  If that were the case then the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is more trustworthy than an event in the 1980’s.

I’m not sure if you really think you’re going to convince people here of the historical reliability of the New Testament with the generalities and platitudes you’re serving up.  I don’t know if you thought you could come here and show a bunch of secular scholars how to properly assess history.  They have developed rigourous methods of determing the probablity of an historical event happening, and it has nothing to do with how many people believe it, or how long it’s been in print.   

The arguments I see here are insane. Why don’t people rely ON FACTS? The fact is that the Gospel of Judas ENDED the myth of the Christ story.  Essential to the story is The Betrayal.  We now know that, combined with Nag Hammadi gnostic Apocalypses of James and Peter, the Gospel of Judas discovery proves that the sacrifice of Jesus originated ELSEWHERE. Judas is the self-sacrifice in the original narrative on Judas, and the original mastership succession narrative in the Apocalypses of Nag Hammadi shows line-by-line harmony IN INVERSE correlation to the canonical Betrayal narrative.  I document the whole argument in my two books on the Bible.  Google judaswasjames.

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godspell

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May 9, 2019 - 7:10 pm

The fact is, the Gospel of Judas is an interesting look into what some gnostics were doing, and doesn’t tell us anything about Jesus, because it was written much later than the synoptics, and of course far later than Paul.

The myth of the Christ story can’t end as long as people obsess over it.  The myth of Jesus of Nazareth can’t end because he really existed, and his memory was the basis for the most influential social movement in all history.  

And man, you are selective about your sources.  It’s a fact that that is terrible scholarship.  

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Elagabalus

4 Posts
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30
June 23, 2019 - 5:55 pm

I just came across this:

** you do not have permission to see this link ** 

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Stephen
4488 Posts
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31
June 23, 2019 - 8:55 pm

Elagabalus said
I just came across this:

** you do not have permission to see this link **   

You know…if you rearrange the letters in the name of the author…interesting!

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Elagabalus

4 Posts
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June 23, 2019 - 10:04 pm

Stephen said

You know…if you rearrange the letters in the name of the author…interesting!  

I’m stumped. What did you come up with?

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Robert
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June 24, 2019 - 6:56 am
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Elagabalus

4 Posts
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June 24, 2019 - 8:03 am

“I swear I had nothing to do with it!” And the cock crew.

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godspell

1827 Posts
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June 24, 2019 - 9:29 am

A contemporary of Jesus, who knew him, witnessed much of his ministry, and was literate (in Greek!) was moved to write a book debunking Jesus’ purported miracles (after Jesus was seemingly a dead issue).  This book survived as an intact manuscript, being copied many times over the course of ten or eleven centuries, and yet nobody in antiquity, Christian Jew or Pagan, ever mentions it.  And its author’s pseudonym is an anagram of a famous New Testament scholar’s name.  (Pseudo-Ehrmanic?)

Kind of debunks itself, wouldn’t you say? 

But you know, in a world where The Secret sells thirty million copies, not to mention the oeuvre of Dan Brown………this will still flop. 

😉

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Stephen
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June 24, 2019 - 10:58 am

And the blurb claims to be from a hitherto unnamed NT scholar.  This sounds like a…forgery!!!

So who’s going to break it to Prof Ehrman?

My question is why go through all this rigamarole?  Why not just write a novel?  

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godspell

1827 Posts
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June 24, 2019 - 11:21 am

Because he’s not a good enough writer to stand on his own merits? 

Seriously, if he was, I might read it. 

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Elagabalus

4 Posts
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38
June 24, 2019 - 12:58 pm

Stephen said

So who’s going to break it to Prof Ehrman?
   

I’ve brought it up in “An Eyewitness to the Crucifixion? Another Modern Forgery” in Latest Posts.

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godspell

1827 Posts
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June 26, 2019 - 2:21 pm

The popularity of the gospels is not evidence of anything, no.  But the fact that their popularity, and the backlash against it in the modern era, has led to massive scholarly investigation, which has shown that there is ample reason to doubt much of what the gospels say, but no reason at all to doubt that they are based on the deeds and words of a man who actually lived–that’s about as solid as it gets in ancient history.  All the original records of that era are suspect.  Historians still debate the factual nature of secular accounts from that era. So the double standard is fully in effect, and the New Testament alone is subjected to standards of proof no other area of historical study ever has to face. 

So it all comes down to many millions wanting to believe all of it and an infinitesimal number of people wanting to believe none of it.  And all one can draw from this is that there’s no real difference between these two groups except in their relative numbers.  Both are extreme and irrational and contemptuous of serious scholarship–both champion junk scholarship and ignore the real thing.  

And both, I might mention, are dominated by white males. 

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Stephen
4488 Posts
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June 26, 2019 - 3:31 pm

…and the New Testament alone is subjected to standards of proof no other area of historical study ever has to face. 

Well no, the controversy springs from the fact the NT is being subjected to the same level of scrutiny as everything else.  If it’s found wanting it’s because it cannot withstand historical scrutiny.

So it all comes down to many millions wanting to believe all of it and an infinitesimal number of people wanting to believe none of it.  And all one can draw from this is that there’s no real difference between these two groups except in their relative numbers.  Both are extreme and irrational and contemptuous of serious scholarship–both champion junk scholarship and ignore the real thing.

You’re attempting to find an equivalence here I’m sure you find very clever but it’s false and seems to function only to provide you with a position where you can consider yourself above it all.  The truth is, the right to critique holy Writ was hard won and I consider it fortunate that scholars like Prof Ehrman can publish and speak without fear of being burned at the stake.  It’s useful to remind ourselves what society was like when the pious really were in charge.

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