Historical artefacts, such as coins, are testimony to the fact that certain individuals were historical figures. That is the bare bones of historical evidence. However, history requires a story; a narrative, to joins up the facts and present a meaningful picture. The picture could be cloudy and unclear or it could be a reasonable explanation of what happened. In the chart that follows, Josephus is the primary source for building that historical narrative. Did Josephus himself, writing after the events, have accurate material to work with? Or is Josephus creating his own narrative – and without a secondary source there is no way to be sure. All one can do is work with his material and question his story when it presents problems.
The chart below has set out Josephan Hasmonean history for Antigonus. It also presents the Josephan history for Philip the Tetrarch. Philo’s story about the mocking of Carabbas and Agrippa I is also used. This chart is the historical backdrop that allows the gospel literary, mythological JC, a veneer of historicity, an ability to reflect historical events. It is this reflection, this veneer of historicity, that has allowed the assumption that the gospel JC figure is a historical figure. That assumption, when considered in the light of history, the Hasmonean and Herodian coins, and that history’s narrative as set down by Josephus and Philo, is unfounded.
| HISTORY and Coins. | Philo (died about 50 c.e.) Flaccus | JOSEPHUS: War (about 75 c.e.) Antiquities: (about 94 c.e.) | The composite gospel Jesus figure based upon the historical figures of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus; and Philip the Tetrarch and Agrippa I. |
| King Antigonus: Mattathias:High Priest of the Jews: Hasmonean Bilingual Coins, Hebrew and Greek…(40-37 b.c.) | … | Antigonus enters Jerusalem: Antigonus himself also bit off Hyrcanus’s ears with his own teeth, as he fell down upon his knees to him, that so he might never be able upon any mutation of affairs to take the high priesthood again, for the high priests that officiated were to be complete, and without blemish. War: Book 1.ch.13 (40 b.c.)……………………Antony came in, and told them that it was for their advantage in the Parthian war that Herod should be king; so they all gave their votes for it. War: Book 1.ch.14 (40 b.c.) | John 18.10; Mark 14.47; Matthew 26.51; Luke 22.50. John and Luke specifying right ear, Mark and Matthew have ‘ear’. gJohn stating that Peter cut off the ear the High Priest’s servant. |
| … | … | Now as winter was going off, Herod marched to Jerusalem, and brought his army to the wall of it; this was the third year since he had been made king at Rome; War: Book 1. ch.17 (37 b.c.).. Herod on his own account, in order to take the government from Antigonus, who was declared all enemy at Rome, and that he might himself be king, according to the decree of the Senate. Antiquities Book 14 ch.16 | gJohn indicates a three year ministry for JC |
| Cassius Dio: Antigonus. These people Antony entrusted to one Herod to govern, and Antigonus he bound to a cross and flogged,—treatment accorded to no other king by the Romans,—and subsequently slew him. Roman History, Book xlix, c.22 | Then it was that Antigonus, without any regard to his former or to his present fortune, came down from the citadel, and fell at Sosius’s feet, who without pitying him at all, upon the change of his condition, laughed at him beyond measure, and called him Antigona. Yet did he not treat him like a woman, or let him go free, but put him into bonds, and kept him in custody…. Sosius ……went away from Jerusalem, leading Antigonus away in bonds to Antony; then did the axe bring him to his end..War: Book 1.ch.18. ..Antigonus, without regard to either his past or present circumstances, came down from the citadel, and fell down at the feet of Sosius, who took no pity of him, in the change of his fortune, but insulted him beyond measure, and called him Antigone [i.e. a woman, and not a man;] yet did he not treat him as if he were a woman, by letting him go at liberty, but put him into bonds, and kept him in close custody……. | The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. Jesus flogged: John 19:1; Mark 15:15; Matthew 27:26. JC crucified. Trilinqual sign over cross: Aramaic, Latin and Greek. gJohn 19.19-21. JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. Other variations: THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS; THE KING OF THE JEWS; THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. | |
| … | … | …and then .but Herod was afraid lest Antigonus should be kept in prison [only] by Antony, and that when he was carried to Rome by him, he might get his cause to be heard by the senate, and might demonstrate, as he was himself of the royal blood, and Herod but a private man, that therefore it belonged to his sons however to have the kingdom, on account of the family they were of, in case he had himself offended the Romans by what he had done. Out of Herod’s fear of this it was that he, by giving Antony a great deal of money, endeavored to persuade him to have Antigonus slain. Antiquities: Book 14 ch.16. (Slavonic Josephus has the teachers of the Law giving the money to Pilate…) | Judas betrays JC for 30 pieces of silver. Matthew 27.3 |
| … | … | Now when Antony had received Antigonus as his captive, he determined to keep him against his triumph; but when he heard that the nation grew seditious, and that, out of their hatred to Herod, they continued to bear good-will to Antigonus, he resolved to behead him at Antioch, for otherwise the Jews could no way be brought to be quiet. (37 b.c.) Antiquities: Book 15 ch.1 | Acts: 11:16. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. |
| Philip the Tetrarch: Herodian Coins. (died, re Josephus in the 20th year of Tiberius) | … | When Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Casearea . He also advanced the village Bethsaids, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, Antiquities: Book 18 ch.2 | John 1:43-45. Philip, Andrew and Peter come from Bethsaida. Around the villages of Casearea Phillipi JC asked the disciples who do people say he is. Peter says: “You are the Messiah”. Mark 8:27-30; Matthew 16: 13-16. |
| … | … | (about 34 c.e.)About this time it was that Philip, Herod’s ‘ brother, departed this life, in the twentieth year of the reign of Tiberius, after he had been tetrarch of Trachonitis and Gaulanitis, and of the nation of the Bataneans also, thirty- seven years. He had showed himself a person of moderation and quietness in the conduct of his life and government; he constantly lived in that country which was subject to him; he used to make his progress with a few chosen friends; his tribunal also, on which he sat in judgment, followed him in his progress; and when any one met him who wanted his assistance, he made no delay, but had his tribunal set down immediately, wheresoever he happened to be, and sat down upon it, and heard his complaint: he there ordered the guilty that were convicted to be punished, and absolved those that had been accused unjustly. He died at Julias; and when he was carried to that monument which he had already erected for himself beforehand, he was buried with great pomp. His principality Tiberius took, (for he left no sons behind him,) and added it to the province of Syria, but gave order that the tributes which arose from it should be collected, and laid up in his tetrachy. Antiquities: Book 18 ch.4 | 12 disciples/apostles: John 6:70; Mark 3:14; Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:13. A rich man from Arimathea, Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. Matthew 27:57-59. Mark 15:43. Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. JC crucified during rule of Pilate – which ends in 36 c.e. |
| Agrippa I(d.44/45 c.e.) Herodian Coins. | The mocking of Carabbas:… a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick …, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, …..Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians;….when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disgustedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king. | … | The soldiers mock Jesus: Mark 15.16-20; Matthew 27:27-31. ….. The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him…………Pilate released Barabbas. |
While the chart has set down the historical backdrop in which to view the gospel JC figure, the chart is not the whole JC story. That story goes on to include OT midrash and mythological elements. However, without the historical backdrop, the gospel JC story would have had no legs upon which to run; no legs to allow it to be viewed as a plausible historical account. Crucified itinerate carpenters might well present historical possibilities and assumptions. However, belief in historical possibilities is something down the line, not something immediate. The immediate reality does not allow for possibilities – it allows only for what reality is. And that is historical reality not assumptions or possibilities.
The gospel JC story is not history; it is a mythologizing of history; an interpretation of history; salvation history. History viewed through a Jewish philosophical and a prophetic lens.
While a lot of what Josephus wrote re Antigonus cannot be historically verified ie biting off the ear of his uncle Hyrcanus, his writing is what we have. All one can do is put the Josephan history and stories alongside the gospel account and acknowledge the reflection of the Josephan history and stories within the gospel story. And, of course, Philo regarding his story about Agrippa I and Carabbas.
In other words; at it’s fundamental level the gospel story is a political allegory. The gospel story reflects history – it is not itself history.
Steefen said
Judas betrays Jesus because the pharisees gave him 30 pieces of silver
is equivalent to
Herod the Great betrays Antigonus because Herod the Great gave Antony a bribe.
That is an excellent comparison to you?
Make of it what you will…..
Fact is that that is what Josephus records regarding Herod, Marc Antony and Antiqonus.
i.e. the last King and High Priest of the Jews was executed by Rome via a great deal of money that Herod gave to Marc Antony.
The gospel crucifixion story is about Rome executing a ‘King of the Jews’ – the gospel figure not denying the title – and this execution was brought about through money changing hands.
maryhelena said
Steefen said
Judas betrays Jesus because the pharisees gave him 30 pieces of silver
is equivalent to
Herod the Great betrays Antigonus because Herod the Great gave Antony a bribe.
That is an excellent comparison to you?Make of it what you will…..
Fact is that that is what Josephus records regarding Herod, Marc Antony and Antiqonus.
i.e. the last King and High Priest of the Jews was executed by Rome via a great deal of money that Herod gave to Marc Antony.
The gospel crucifixion story is about Rome executing a ‘King of the Jews’ – the gospel figure not denying the title – and this execution was brought about through money changing hands.
You’re the one making something of it. The history may be accurate without forcing a comparison.
Maybe you’re saying
Judas betrays Jesus because the Pharisees gave him 30 pieces of silver; Jesus is killed by Rome (Pilate)
is equivalent to
Antony, a Roman, betrays Antigonus because Herod the Great bribed Antony; Antigonus is killed by Rome (Antony)
Judas = Antony (not a good comparison because Judas did not kill Jesus)
The faulty comparison need not be detailed any further.
The history may stand but your comprehension via comparison is not admirable, cannot be taught to others.
Steefen said
maryhelena said
Steefen said
Judas betrays Jesus because the pharisees gave him 30 pieces of silver
is equivalent to
Herod the Great betrays Antigonus because Herod the Great gave Antony a bribe.
That is an excellent comparison to you?Make of it what you will…..
Fact is that that is what Josephus records regarding Herod, Marc Antony and Antiqonus.
i.e. the last King and High Priest of the Jews was executed by Rome via a great deal of money that Herod gave to Marc Antony.
The gospel crucifixion story is about Rome executing a ‘King of the Jews’ – the gospel figure not denying the title – and this execution was brought about through money changing hands.
You’re the one making something of it. The history may be accurate without forcing a comparison.
As I said, make of it what you will….
Steefen said
Maybe you’re sayingJudas betrays Jesus because the Pharisees gave him 30 pieces of silver; Jesus is killed by Rome (Pilate)
is equivalent to
Antony, a Roman, betrays Antigonus because Herod the Great bribed Antony; Antigonus is killed by Rome (Antony)
Judas = Antony (not a good comparison because Judas did not kill Jesus)
The chart is not dealing with parallels. It is dealing with reflections. It is dealing with themes.
1. Antigonus bit off the ear of the High Priest – the ear of the servant of the High Priest was cut off during the arrest of Jesus.
2. Antigonus was mocked – Jesus was mocked.
3. Herod gave Marc Antony money – the chief priests and elders gave money to Judas.
(Interestingly, the wonder-doer story in Slavonic Josephus: ”The teachers of the Law were [therefore] envenomed with envy and gave thirty talents to Pilate, in order that he should put him to death. And he, after he had taken [the money], gave them consent that they should themselves carry out their purpose”.)
4. Antigonus was, re Cassius Dio, hung on a cross/stake – as was Jesus.
5. Antigonus ruled for 3 years – as the gospel of John is taken to indicate that Jesus had a 3 year ministry.
6. Antigonus was King of the Jews – as the sign over the cross of Jesus named him as ‘King of the Jews.
7. Antigonus was executed in Antioch – the city were Christians were first called by that name.
The faulty comparison need not be detailed any further.
The history may stand but your comprehension via comparison is not admirable, cannot be taught to others.
Yes, the history stands – and so too do the reflections of that Josephan history within the gospel crucifixion story. Memories of that tragic historical event would be reflected upon – as memories of the assassination of John Kennedy are remembered by many people today.
maryhelena said
1. Antigonus bit off the ear of the High Priest – the ear of the servant of the High Priest was cut off during the arrest of Jesus.
Mike Tyson bit Holyfield’s ear.
2. Antigonus was mocked – Jesus was mocked.
With the amount of sarcastic people in the world in any given year, who isn’t mocked?
3. Herod gave Marc Antony money – the chief priests and elders gave money to Judas.
Money is given by people to people all the time. In some cultures and especially political circles, money is exchanged.
4. Antigonus was, re Cassius Dio, hung on a cross/stake – as was Jesus.
For the same offense?
5. Antigonus ruled for 3 years – as the gospel of John is taken to indicate that Jesus had a 3 year ministry.
Antigonus had a daughter, did Jesus have a daughter?
6. Antigonus was King of the Jews – as the sign over the cross of Jesus named him as ‘King of the Jews.
Herod the Great was King of the Jews.
7. Antigonus was executed in Antioch – the city were Christians were first called by that name.
Was Jesus executed in Antioch.
Yes, the reflections of that Josephan history within the gospel crucifixion story stand. Memories of that tragic historical event would be reflected upon – as memories of the assassination of John Kennedy are remembered by many people today.
I’m glad your train went out of service before it got to the JFK stop.
f
Steefen said
maryhelena said
1. Antigonus bit off the ear of the High Priest – the ear of the servant of the High Priest was cut off during the arrest of Jesus.
Mike Tyson bit Holyfield’s ear.
So? What relevance is that to the gospel story?
2. Antigonus was mocked – Jesus was mocked.
With the amount of sarcastic people in the world in any given year, who isn’t mocked?
And the relevance to the gospel story is?
3. Herod gave Marc Antony money – the chief priests and elders gave money to Judas.
Money is given by people to people all the time. In some cultures and especially political circles, money is exchanged.
And the relevance to the gospel story is?
4. Antigonus was, re Cassius Dio, hung on a cross/stake – as was Jesus.
For the same offense?
Being King of the Jews for Antigonus – King of the Jews on the notice above the cross of Jesus.
5. Antigonus ruled for 3 years – as the gospel of John is taken to indicate that Jesus had a 3 year ministry.
Antigonus had a daughter, did Jesus have a daughter?
You have no historical evidence that Jesus existed – the gospel story has no daughter for it’s literary Jesus figure…..
6. Antigonus was King of the Jews – as the sign over the cross of Jesus named him as ‘King of the Jews.
Herod the Great was King of the Jews.
But he was not hung on a cross and executed by the Romans..
7. Antigonus was executed in Antioch – the city were Christians were first called by that name.
Was Jesus executed in Antioch.
I wrote earlier that the chart is not dealing with parallels. The chart deals with reflections of history, echoes of history, themes from history. Keep that in mind when next you try to look for parallels.
Yes, the reflections of that Josephan history within the gospel crucifixion story stand. Memories of that tragic historical event would be reflected upon – as memories of the assassination of John Kennedy are remembered by many people today.
I’m glad your train went out of service before it got to the JFK stop.
As for the JFK assassination…..1963 happens to be 2000 years since the Roman execution of Antigonus in 37 b.c. Just a by the way interesting bit of historical trivia.
Anyway, Steefen, unless you have better arguments to present, arguments that take into consideration points I have raised – don’t bother wasting space on this thread with throwing out points that have no relevance to the OP.
spiker said
Greg Matthews said
Cat fight!making popcorn. This could be a doozy!
You missed my reply to Greg I don’t have a cat….
If Steefen continues to post nonsense replies to my OP – then I won’t be replying to him. Keep your popcorn for debates that are worth your investment – debates that deal with the OP – not ‘debates’ that seek to make nonsense replies to the OP. You might learn something that way – much better than seeking opportunities to ridicule….
magpie said
Maryhelena, it is pointless to engage with Steefen, he is unreachable by reason. I fear that he is truly mentally ill. Look up his previous extensive posts, his YouTube videos etc. It is a losing battle to interact with him, others here have tried.
Thanks, magpie, for that advise. Actually, I think my very first posts to this forum were regarding ideas put forth by Steefen – so I do have a general idea of where he is at. I originally replied to him on this thread – giving him an opportunity to demonstrate rational discourse – it was not forthcoming – so, unless he addresses the OP in a rational manner – there will be no further exchange with him on my part.
—————–
Sorry guys – no cat fight from me – that’s not my way of going about things…
Or maybe it’s an attempt to engage with someone in a way that’s possible for him. My late son made heroic efforts to keep in terrific good shape should a cure for his illness be “right around the corner”. Keeping motivated, engaged and connected was a challenge. Not that this is the place or that we should contend with it.
Judith said
Or maybe it’s an attempt to engage with someone in a way that’s possible for him. My late son made heroic efforts to keep in terrific good shape should a cure for his illness be “right around the corner”. Keeping motivated, engaged and connected was a challenge. Not that this is the place or that we should contend with it.
Yes, it’s always a good policy to try and put oneself in another’s shoes. That way lies empathy and a willingness to treat everyone on a humanitarian basis. However, that said, on a forum we are dealing with ideas. We can make the effort to understand an opponent’s point of view – but we can also get to a position where we have to agree to disagree. Otherwise one can end up in a cat fight….
Someone once said – a mind cannot be forced. The penny drops when it will. A light bulb moment. Sometimes one has to let human nature take it’s course – rather than resorting to banging ones head against a brick wall attempting to make someone ‘see’ things that we ‘see’.
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