Scholarship absolutely changes our understanding of the meaning of myths, especially as we grapple to gain a better sense of their original context. I will note, as a very prominent example, that Joseph Campbell’s day appears to have come and gone.
What JAS said.
We are not talking about modern interpretations of myths.
Steefen you don’t understand. The idea of “dying and rising gods” is a modern interpretation of myths. An interpretation that, even though the intent was to place Christianity in a Mediterranean cultural complex, erred in filtering that cultural complex through a Christian lens. The goal must be to see these diverse cultures in their own context, on their own terms, not squeeze them into an artificial template that we invented but pretend we discovered. Of course anachronism is almost impossible to overcome. We all see the world through our own eyes. But as far as it is possible to do so we must let the ancients speak for themselves (and honestly acknowledge that there are times when that is simply not possible. But resolutely avoid the temptation to start making sh*t up!)
Robert said
Nothing there of a particularly Pauline focus, Steefen, just traditional messianic aspiration in a political context. This is likely what Pilate and the high priests and scribes saw in Jesus as a threat, and likely akin to what Peter had in mind in his confession of Jesus as the Messiah, when Peter rebukes Jesus for predicting his death. What is indeed rather Pauline is not Peter’s confession, but Jesus, in contrast to Peter, predicting his death and resurrection and later on speaking of his death as being somehow redemptive. In this way Mark may be said to be imposing a more Pauline idea in contrast to a more traditional idea of messiahship. Matthew seeks to rehabilitate the image of Peter here as the foundation of the church and the holder of the keys, etc.It’s easier to see the conflicting views of what it means for Jesus to be the Christ in the earlier account of Mark, right after Peter proclaims Jesus to be the Messiah:
And he [Jesus] rebuked (ἐπετίμησεν) them not to tell anyone about him. Then he began (ἤρξατο) to teach them that the Son of Man must undergo great suffering, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He said all this quite openly. And Peter took him aside and began (ἤρξατο) to rebuke (ἐπιτιμᾶν) him. But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked (ἐπιτίμησεν) Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”
This three-fold rebuke scene makes it obvious that Peter and Jesus have contrary views of Jesus’ fate at this point, and two very different ideas of what it means to be the Messiah.
Robert
Matthew seeks to rehabilitate the image of Peter here as the foundation of the church and the holder of the keys, etc.
Steefen
Jesus’s mission was not to found a new religion or a new synagogue or a new type of synagogue.
Paul Williams
Paul says in 1 Corinthians [1 Corinthians 15: 3], the Messiah died for our sins in according to the scriptures.
Paul gives a scriptural warrant for this belief.
To what passage is Paul making reference?
Barrie Wilson
No one has found what Paul has referenced.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
If one uses Isaiah 53: 5
pierced for our transgressions would have to equal death by piercing
piercing for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities would have to equal death by piercing.
[This suffering pleases the Lord God. – Isaiah 53:10]
Paul Williams
1 Corinthians 15:4, again, according to the Scriptures, he was raised on the third day.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Hosea 6: 2 After two days, He will revive us; on the third day, He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.
Barrie Wilson
I do not know what is being referenced.
Paul goes off in two directions that separate him from Judaism:
1) He denies the validity of keeping the Torah. The time of Torah is over. —
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Someone would say that after the Temple has been destroyed.
Barrie Wilson (continued)
2) He makes a human being into a divinity.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Deified Julius Caesar, deified Augustus Caesar and so on.
I agree, that is a separation from Judaism.
p/u at 12:12 / 57:52
There is no such thing as a myth with no room for interpretation. No such thing at all. Even if you could remove the layers of interpretation, the myth would vanish in a puff of smoke.
I might add that in the particular case of the myth you cite, it has no elements of a risen god that are not heavily imposed upon it. It is merely a quaint story about the return of spring each year. Persephone is abducted by Hades, but while she might spend much of the year in the underworld, she is not even dead.
Barrie Wilson, PhD
James and Jesus were strict Jews.
Jesus: Keep the Jewish laws more strictly than the Pharisees and other authority figures. Do the Law but with the correct attitude (mercy, forgiveness).
James died without his brother coming back.
Paul thinks of James as being an agent of Satan in 2 Corinthians.
[Chapter 12, verses 6-7]
6 Even if I wanted to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me,
7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Paul Williams/Blogging Theology
Who, then are the Ebionites, if the Jerusalem church died out?
p/u at 19:06/57:52
Barrie Wilson
Ebionites: a sect of Judaism
Paul offered salvation.
Paul offered salvation, simply. Ebionites and Judaism does not offer Mere Christianity, mere salvation.
The Ebionites would have seen Jesus as a teacher, not a divinity.
Jesus prophesied the Kingdom of God is coming soon. That didn’t happen.
The Ebionites were not Trinitarians.
Paul deprived Jesus of Jewish stature.
p/u 24:02/57:52
Barrie Wilson, Author of How Jesus Became Christian
Period of Faith – Abraham
to
Period of Torah – Moses
to
Period of Faith – Jesus
Galatians is so important to Christianity
The time of Torah is over. – Galatians
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Galatians 3: 24 – 25 The Law [Torah] was a guardian. The historical period of faith has returned: we are no longer under our guardian of Torah. We are all sons of God through Faith in Christ.
Do not ask me to accept this is pre-Temple Destruction religious thought which probably means do not ask me to accept Paul’s ministry to have taken place before the Temple became desolate of its purpose before the actual destruction.
p /u at 26:08 / 57:52
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert