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In What Sense Was John the Baptist Thought To Be Elijah?
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Omar6741

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July 19, 2020 - 10:15 pm

A number of times in the Gospels, some historical figure (Jesus, John the Baptist, and maybe others) is thought to be, in some sense, an ancient figure re-appearing in a new form. Jesus is also said, by Herod Antipas, to be John the Baptist raised from the dead; Antipas thinks this explains why he has miraculous powers.

Now, what was meant by saying John the Baptist was Elijah returned? Was it only that he was similar to Elijah? That seems a bit too weak for this sort of language. Did people think he was a reincarnation of Elijah? Or was he supposed to be possessed by the spirit of Elijah? If not these options, what else might be meant?

(Background motivation: I ask because the Indian Messiah-claimant Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, claimed to be Jesus. I am pretty sure he was inspired in this by his studies of the New Testament, as the idea is not found in the Islamic sources with which he was brought up. So exploring this will help with understanding a more modern religious movement.)

Thank you!

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Robert
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July 19, 2020 - 11:18 pm
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Poohbear

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July 20, 2020 - 1:16 am

Omar6741 said
A number of times in the Gospels, some historical figure (Jesus, John the Baptist, and maybe others) is thought to be, in some sense, an ancient figure re-appearing in a new form. Jesus is also said, by Herod Antipas, to be John the Baptist raised from the dead; Antipas thinks this explains why he has miraculous powers.

Now, what was meant by saying John the Baptist was Elijah returned? Was it only that he was similar to Elijah? That seems a bit too weak for this sort of language. Did people think he was a reincarnation of Elijah? Or was he supposed to be possessed by the spirit of Elijah? If not these options, what else might be meant?

(Background motivation: I ask because the Indian Messiah-claimant Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, claimed to be Jesus. I am pretty sure he was inspired in this by his studies of the New Testament, as the idea is not found in the Islamic sources with which he was brought up. So exploring this will help with understanding a more modern religious movement.)

Thank you!  

Omar. I am sure you are reading SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. Jesus said that John was greater than all the Old Testament prophets – that would include Elijah. John is “Elijah that is to come” and not “Elijah in person.” An Elijah, even greater than Elijah, would herald the coming of the Messiah. I think Malachi says this Elijah figure must come first.

As an aside. Some want to be great military men, or prophets, or kings, or wise men etc.. but NO-ONE WANTS TO BE A REDEEMER WHO PAYS THE PRICE FOR THE  SINS OF OTHERS. When you read of people claiming to be Jesus in the flesh then it won’t be miracles that prove this – it’s their life. In any case, as Zechariah pointed out, the returning Messiah, the one who suffered for us, will return as a reigning King – not as a con-man. 

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tompicard

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July 21, 2020 - 12:58 pm

Robert said
Recall that Elijah never died, but rather was taken up to heaven alive. . . . but it does explain the Elijah belief within Judaism.  

what do you mean ?  what difference does it make that Elijah was taken up to heaven alive vs died naturally .     

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Robert
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July 21, 2020 - 1:41 pm
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tompicard

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July 21, 2020 - 8:54 pm

Robert said
If he’s taken up alive, he can come back in adult form without the need to be re-incarnated as an infant.  

 Do you have any indication that is how Elijah’s return was viewed by Malachi, and or any new testament authors or Jesus ,  Luke does not see it that way  (he presents John’s birth parents and Jesus identifying John with Elijah) .    There is no indication, I am aware of that  Jesus thought Elijah would pop into existence as an adult 

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Robert
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July 21, 2020 - 10:05 pm
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Stephen
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July 22, 2020 - 3:26 pm

There is no indication, I am aware of that  Jesus thought Elijah would pop into existence as an adult 

Yet this is precisely what he does at the Transfiguration.   Along with Moses  of course who also was “taken” by God in some  sense.  As Robert pointed out these were two humans, who because of their righteousness, were “divinized”.  The traditional interpretation of the Transfiguration is  that Moses and Elijah were representing the Law and the Prophets acknowledging Jesus but I wonder if there was also not another parallel being drawn?         

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Omar6741

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July 23, 2020 - 12:14 pm

Robert said
If he’s taken up alive, he can come back in adult form without the need to be re-incarnated as an infant. In the meantime, he would be living in heaven as Enoch or Moses in some traditions. That may or may not involve some kind of divinization into an angelic being.   

This confirms that Elijah coming back in his adult form is not how the early Christians saw John the Baptist. That, in turn, follows from the fact that Luke told the story of his being born to a relative of Jesus’ mother, and the mere idea of his being born in the recent past did not, as far as we know, elicit controversy.

“Elijah coming back as John” was either symbolic language, or something else I haven’t pinpointed yet e.g. perhaps something akin to spirit possession, which clearly was a recognized phenomenon at the time.

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Robert
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July 23, 2020 - 12:20 pm
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Omar6741

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July 23, 2020 - 12:21 pm

Poohbear said

Omar. I am sure you are reading SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. Jesus said that John was greater than all the Old Testament prophets – that would include Elijah. John is “Elijah that is to come” and not “Elijah in person.” An Elijah, even greater than Elijah, would herald the coming of the Messiah. I think Malachi says this Elijah figure must come first.

As an aside. Some want to be great military men, or prophets, or kings, or wise men etc.. but NO-ONE WANTS TO BE A REDEEMER WHO PAYS THE PRICE FOR THE  SINS OF OTHERS. When you read of people claiming to be Jesus in the flesh then it won’t be miracles that prove this – it’s their life. In any case, as Zechariah pointed out, the returning Messiah, the one who suffered for us, will return as a reigning King – not as a con-man.   

 Thanks! I do like the symbolic language idea; however, there are hints in the Gospels that people of the time took seriously the idea of someone being brought back from the dead in a new form, and thought of it more than symbolically. This leaves me unsure whether the symbolic language interpretation is correct in the case of the John/Elijah identification.

One such hint is in the passage from Mark in which Herod explains Jesus’ miracles by saying that this was John brought back from the dead. Another is the disciples’ report to Jesus, just before Peter’s messianic confession — in various forms in the Synoptics — that Jesus was being identified with one or other former or ancient prophet (Jeremiah, Elijah, John, etc.).

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FocusMyView

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December 25, 2023 - 4:18 am

The Elijah canard was part of Mark’s joke about Jesus not being seen. Even on the cross calling out Eloi, eloi, sabcthini, a nearby observer thinks Jesus is calling out for Elijah.

“Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist,” Mark 1.
2 kings 1:8 They answered him, “A hairy man with a leather belt around his waist.” He said, “It is Elijah the Tishbite.”

The beginning of Mark is about John baptizing Jesus in the Jordan, where Jesus received the spirit.
In the Elijah Elisha Narrative Elijah passes on a double portion of his spirit to Elisha. Likewise John the baptist says that Jesus is greater.

Then Mark switches to using Elijah narrative for Jesus as Jesus goes out in the desert for 40 days and is fed by the animals.
Mostly Jesus, greater than John is channeling Elisha, greater than Elisha.

Chapter 8 and nine is considered the key sections by those who look to literary structure as a source of guidance as to what an author thought was important, because this is the middle of Mark. Here we have the transfiguration, with Moses and Elijah showing up. (I would argue that Jesus Nazareth here is channeling both Jesus Nun, the assistant to Moses, and Elisha, the assistant to Elijah.)

Then as I said an onlooker thinks Elijah just might appear at the end of Mark. so the Beginning, the Center, and the end refer to Elijah not just through muted hints, allusion, or similarities, but by naming Elijah directly. Mark wants the reader to be aware he is transforming the Elijah Elisha Narrative, among other texts, into the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.

As far as NT authors expecting Elijah, this is only in the synoptics, as the crowd rejects any association of Jesus with Elijah in John. No other NT writer expects Elijah before the Christ (Messiah).

As far as Malachi predicting Elijah will some before the terrible day of Yahweh, I would posit that that already happened, as Elijah did come before the very violent king Jehu who already did his killing many centuries earlier, as told in the book of Kings.

Still, I have heard that some Jews even today leave a place for Elijah at the table and a door open for him to enter at Passover.

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Colin Milton

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November 14, 2024 - 9:06 am

“In what sense” is your (their) free will of choice. Is John the Baptist the return of Elijah? Yes or No.

Matthew 11:11-14

In verse 14 Jesus tells them it’s their choice. Do you accept that John the Baptist is Elijah? Yes or No?

The return of Elijah is a OT prophecy from Malachi 4:5.

Point is in context of Matthew 11, that the kingdom of heaven is here. All the OT prophecy was now fulfilled. If want the Day of the LORD to happen now they must accept that John the Baptist is the return of Elijah. Yes or No.

The Day of the LORD is described in Zechariah 14, the whole chapter. Ezekiel 37:24, also means there’s a return of King David who will be the prince of Israel.

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Colin Milton

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November 14, 2024 - 9:38 am

I made a mistake, all the OT prophecy was ready to be fulfilled if they only accept that John the Baptist was Elijah.

In typical Jewish fashion, they blew it and ruined everything like the entire OT.

The NT then goes on to bring forth new prophecies and end right back at square one with OT prophecies waiting for the return of Elijah, (and King David gets a new name, now part of the Trinity).

And then they all blew it again, and on it goes.

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Serene

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February 1, 2025 - 2:28 am

** you do not have permission to see this link **Elijah in the Guise of an Arab.

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Elijah *returns* from his ascent into the heavens a lot in midrash, and now he’s dressed as an Arab bestowing charity to good stewards. This makes sense to me with his earlier camel coat wear, because there’s no Jewish camels, and camels are an Arab symbol on ancient coins. What Arab/Arabians means in the ancient world is closer to sheik today, no-standing-army type of wealthy. Also Elijah is a ‘resident alien’ ie ’tishbite’ of Gilead in what is an archaeologically Arabian region – Midianite and then Nabataean. 

So maybe this ascent into the heavens is like how when Paul ascends or descends, it’s taken as a directional term of travel. Except with majestic language because maybe Elijah deserves it. 

“Elijah appeared to many while they were awake, and this in various ways. He often elected to appear in the guise of an Arab (V05p123003.jpg) or, more exactly, in that of an Arab of the desert V05p123004.jpg (see Arabia in Rabbinical Literature). In this manner he once appeared to a poor but pious man, and asked him whether he wished to enjoy the six good years which were appointed him now, or at the end of his life. The pious man took him for a sorcerer, and made no reply. But when Elijah came the third time, the man consulted his wife as to what he should do. They concluded to tell the Arab that they wished to enjoy the good years at once; they had hardly expressed their wish when their children found a great treasure. The pious couple made good use of their riches, and spent much money for benevolent purposes. After six years the Arab returned and told them that the end of their prosperity had come. The woman, however, said to him: “If you can find people who will use with more conscientiousness what you give unto them, then take it from us and give it to them.” God, who well knew what use this pious couple had made of their wealth, left it in their hands as long as they lived (Midr. Ruth Zuṭa, ed. Buber, near end).

 

I think its in the deuteroconanical Maccabees where they explain that the “priestly secret” of the fire that burns in a great quantity of water (also a feat of Elijah) is naptha. Relatedly, the Arabian trade of petroleum products is more ancient than common knowledge gives them credit for. Bitumen as a plasticizer, fixative, and waterproofing material was big money.

As far as concepts of soul transmigration/reincarnation, Alexander the Great had opened a cultural transmission with India centuries prior. There’s Indian Elephant collonade toppers in syncretic Petra, indicating some level of familiarity with the region, and a fairly recently discovered First Century Berenike Buddha at the Nabataean Arabian trading port. Not only that but Nicolaus of Damascus, Herod the Great’s close friend wrote about meeting an Indian delegation with a spiritual practitioner.

And the 10th C Nabataean Book of Agriculture draws on earlier literature and plainly speaks of reincarnation. The earliest systemic belief like this that I can find so far is in Ebla, and the Nabataean Abgarid kingdom overlapped that site. Eblaites have no mourning rituals for their royalty. They are prepared to return to Earth life. 

The only explanation that makes sense to me as to why Western scholars don’t tend to read reincarnation in the New Testament is because to my perception, they likely don’t have as much lived experience nearer to the East.

 

The Druze and Mandaeans claim early adjacency to whatever philosophies are crystallizing in the ANE in the first millenium CE and they are Reincarnationists. I speculate that there may be a particular reverence for written records utilized as evidence for repeated characteristics.

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Stephen
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February 1, 2025 - 8:44 am

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