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Is the 'Son of Man' different than the 'Messiah', according to Dr. Ehrman and/or historical Jesus
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tompicard

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September 27, 2016 - 9:25 am

In Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet  Prof. Ehrman seems to say that the historical Jesus expected the apocalypse to be initiated by a cosmic individual referred to as the son of man. And that Jesus referring to himself as the ‘son of man’ is not historical.

The ‘Son of Man’ is a kind of judge, dividing sheep/goats, wheat/chaff, etc, whereas the ‘Messiah’ is the head king of the earthly kingdom.

Why would he think these are 2 different individuals with different jobs?

Does anyone else find this distinction of messiah/son of man into two different people convincing?

If so can you explain it to me.

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Matt2h

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October 12, 2016 - 10:51 am

The phrase “Son of Man” and the different senses in which it is used is one of the most enigmatic things to me about this area. It’s very strange. Sometimes, it seems to mean humanity. Sometimes, it seems to mean a cosmic judge. Sometimes, the character Jesus uses these words to refer to himself. 

What’s the difference between the Messiah and the son of man? To understand these terms, I think we have go back to the Hebrew scriptures and look at the different contexts in which the terms are used and the different sets of expectations concerning these figures. I don’t have enough background to have references at the ready, but I’m pretty sure that the messiah was pretty much always (until the Christians came along) expected to be an earthly, human person who would bring great honor and glory to the Jewish people in some way. Often, it was expected that the Messiah would be a future king. Someone who would rule over a restored Israel. Or possibly a great religious teacher or lawgiver.

The Son of Man, when used with the definite article, particularly as it’s used in the Book of Daniel, appears to refer to a (humanlike?) cosmic divine agent who arrive at the end of time to judge the earth and separate the righteous from the damned. 

Your suggestion that the son of man and the messiah could be the same figure is interesting, but I get the sense that there were slightly different sets of expectations around these figures. The early Christians want to say that Jesus is both Messiah and Son of Man. I’m not sure that the Jewish tradition would say that the Messiah and the Son of Man are the same thing, necessarily, and they certainly would have scoffed (and did) at the notion that this Jesus of Nazareth could have been either. 

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Omar6741

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October 14, 2016 - 10:56 pm

tompicard said
In Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet  Prof. Ehrman seems to say that the historical Jesus expected the apocalypse to be initiated by a cosmic individual referred to as the son of man. And that Jesus referring to himself as the ‘son of man’ is not historical.

The ‘Son of Man’ is a kind of judge, dividing sheep/goats, wheat/chaff, etc, whereas the ‘Messiah’ is the head king of the earthly kingdom.

Why would he think these are 2 different individuals with different jobs?

Does anyone else find this distinction of messiah/son of man into two different people convincing?

If so can you explain it to me.  

There are passages in which Jesus certainly appears to be using the phrase “Son of Man” to talk about a future figure other than himself, someone to whom he has allegiance.

In other places, Jesus used the phrase as a way of talking about himself: we are told by many scholars that this was an Aramaic idiom of the time.

So Jesus was ambiguous in his usage, and he expected others to get what he meant from the context.

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Steefen
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November 27, 2016 - 10:08 am

Is the Son of Man Different from Jesus Christ the Messiah? Answer: No and Yes.

What kingdom did we have over Jerusalem after the Apocalypse of 67-73 C.E.?

Was it the Son of God who ruled or the Son of Man who ruled?

Was it the Jewish Son of God and the Jewish Son of Man or the Roman Son of Man who ruled?

Jesus, the Galilean, with a band of bandit mariners were killed at the land and sea battle of Galilee.

I see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power means I see the Roman Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Jewish notion of God. That is why the Jews lamented when they heard Jesus say it. That is why the Jews stoned Stephen. That is why it was written that James the brother of Jesus also was killed after saying the same.

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