While reading many posts I’ve noticed reference to Jesus’ 12 disciples. I have a stupid question: since there seems to be little probability of even one witness of Jesus’ life, how can we assume/know there were 12 apostles/disciples (the original group)? In my very limited understanding of Christianity, it seems that the number 12 is significant to the ancients: 12 tribes of Israel; 12 apostles; 12 Imams, 12 months of the year, etc. Within some Jewish communities, boys and girls receive bar and bat mitvah at the age of 12. I am sure there are plenty of references to the number 12 that are unfamiliar to me.
I make the same observation. Prof Ehrman has written that Jesus did choose twelve to represent the 12 tribes. He says, why not 9 or 13? I think that’s too convenient though. When it comes to numbers in both the OT and NT nothing is random about them. “12” is one of the most common numbers. There’s a website I found once that lists the number of times that different numbers are used in the Bible. If you take into account the various multiples of 12 like 12,000 (12 times 1,000) and 144,000 (12 squared times 1,000) then “12” in it’s various forms is used an insane number of times. Prof Ehrman makes sense out of a lot of things that I agree with, but this is one where I don’t agree with him. I think Jesus probably did have a core group of followers. Later, when Mark and the others wrote their gospels they wanted everything to harmonize so they stretched the truth on this and maybe Jesus had 8 core followers so Mark and the others added a few more not-so-inner-core followers to make a nice round number of 12.
kdgecko said
While reading many posts I’ve noticed reference to Jesus’ 12 disciples. I have a stupid question: since there seems to be little probability of even one witness of Jesus’ life, how can we assume/know there were 12 apostles/disciples (the original group)? In my very limited understanding of Christianity, it seems that the number 12 is significant to the ancients: 12 tribes of Israel; 12 apostles; 12 Imams, 12 months of the year, etc. Within some Jewish communities, boys and girls receive bar and bat mitvah at the age of 12. I am sure there are plenty of references to the number 12 that are unfamiliar to me.
Why is the probability low? It is normally assumed that the existence of an inner group of disciples is among the safest “facts” about Jesus. It is well attested, independently, by Paul, who knew the leaders of the group personally. From Paul’s letters it is implicitly clear that he envied this group the privilege of having known Jesus while Jesus was alive. Or else one has to assume that Paul was duped by the early community leaders as well as Paul’s relatives, who joined the movement even earlier.
gavriel said
kdgecko said
While reading many posts I’ve noticed reference to Jesus’ 12 disciples. I have a stupid question: since there seems to be little probability of even one witness of Jesus’ life, how can we assume/know there were 12 apostles/disciples (the original group)? In my very limited understanding of Christianity, it seems that the number 12 is significant to the ancients: 12 tribes of Israel; 12 apostles; 12 Imams, 12 months of the year, etc. Within some Jewish communities, boys and girls receive bar and bat mitvah at the age of 12. I am sure there are plenty of references to the number 12 that are unfamiliar to me.Why is the probability low? It is normally assumed that the existence of an inner group of disciples is among the safest “facts” about Jesus. It is well attested, independently, by Paul, who knew the leaders of the group personally. From Paul’s letters it is implicitly clear that he envied this group the privilege of having known Jesus while Jesus was alive. Or else one has to assume that Paul was duped by the early community leaders as well as Paul’s relatives, who joined the movement even earlier.
Yeah, Paul is pretty cut and dry on this. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 :
3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters[c] at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.[d] 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Its been suggested that Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist and when he separated to go his own way, some of John’s disciples joined him. Does this give an untruth that Jesus actually ‘chose’ them? I don’t understand why John didn’t join Jesus as a Disciple especially if he thought he was the Messiah?
The story, I was going to say ‘fact’ 
that Jesus ‘chose’ 12 men as disciples shows clearly that he could not have been with God eternally as he is the God of all mankind/womankind. I despise that mankind word as its clearly placed women as second class.
Jesus chosing 12 blokes proves he was just a Jewish man of his times and nothing more special than that actually. But myth and legend is a strong deliverer where people turn such stories into fact. 40 is another number that shows itself in the bible as significant. After the Exodus in the wilderness. Jesus in the wilderness. The flood 40 days and nights and probably many others.
The book of revelation abounds with such trivia!
It was supposed to be prophetic and yet only mentions the then existing 7 churches in Asia Minor etc and nothing about the emergence of the Catholic Church nor the thousand others that have emerged since. Maybe the end of the world came then and nobody noticed it?
There are clear indications that Judaism like all other Mesopotamian religions was Itself a Astrology based religion. Obviously the number 12 represents the constellations. Early Christianity shows the same traits with it’s use of certain numbers.
It would be a long post to go through the significance of each number here. Zodiac wheel mosaics have been found in early synagogues dating from the 4th to 6th centuries. Off the top of my head the one found at Beth Alpha shows the 12 zodiac signs on the outside with the Greco – Roman sun god Helios in the centre. The Zodiac signs are named in Hebrew. If i recall correctly this was a large mosaic placed in the floor near the entrance.
It would appear that the “church” during the middle ages went to great lengths to cover it’s “astrological” roots, however the evidence is present in both old and new testaments … We have simply been forced to forget how to recognise and understand them. I did a study of this some years ago … It was a eye opener to say the least. @manx
Obviously the number 12 represents the constellations.
Obviously? The simplest explanation is that Jesus was referring to the traditional twelve tribes of Israel, one disciple representing each tribe. That would nicely fit in with the prevailing Jewish apocalyptic framework.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8 continues to fascinate. Where is Mary Magdalene? Was Cephas not one of the Twelve or was he included in the Twelve? What is the distinction being made between the Twelve and the apostles? There was a meeting of five hundred “brothers and sisters” that met together without the Twelve or the Apostles being present or were the Twelve and the apostles included in that number? What does Paul mean by “last of all”? The final, or simply the most recent? What does he mean by “as to one untimely born”? Is he implying that the first appearances took place over a short period of time early on and noting the interval between them and his own appearance? Or something else completely?
And of course there is the issue of how this chronology differs from the accounts in the gospels and Acts.
@Stephen … Obviously yes.
As the 12 tribes did not exist in reality … but were chosen as a representation of the 12 constellations.
The Old Testament is not historical fact … No 12 tribes no United Kingdom of Israel. Israel and Judea may have had the same roots from Canaan however they developed at different time periods. Whilst Israel to the North was developing into a strong rich concern Judea to the South was still a poor undeveloped scattering of villages. Judea did not start to develop until after Israel was wiped out by the Assyrians. So whilst it is probable that refuges made it south to Judea never were the two one Untied Kingdom.
Unfortunately as Judea started to develop and get ideas about claiming the Northern area that used to be Israel for themselves they in turn were conquered by the Babylonians (If memory serves it was at this time the Chaldeans were in control of Babylon). It was during the Babylonian Exile that the first five books of the old testament were put together. These five books are all part of the creation story. Clear evidence of reused mythology exists in the old testament that shows whilst Judaism is different to other Mesopotamian religions it is born out of the same traditions.
@manx
gmatthews said
I make the same observation. Prof Ehrman has written that Jesus did choose twelve to represent the 12 tribes. He says, why not 9 or 13? I think that’s too convenient though. When it comes to numbers in both the OT and NT nothing is random about them. “12” is one of the most common numbers. There’s a website I found once that lists the number of times that different numbers are used in the Bible. If you take into account the various multiples of 12 like 12,000 (12 times 1,000) and 144,000 (12 squared times 1,000) then “12” in it’s various forms is used an insane number of times. Prof Ehrman makes sense out of a lot of things that I agree with, but this is one where I don’t agree with him. I think Jesus probably did have a core group of followers. Later, when Mark and the others wrote their gospels they wanted everything to harmonize so they stretched the truth on this and maybe Jesus had 8 core followers so Mark and the others added a few more not-so-inner-core followers to make a nice round number of 12.
What’s the evidence? You can’t be suggesting that because 12 was an important number and used alot, that it was therefore falsely used in one of those cases. People who play craps value certain numbers. That those numbers appear alot in their conversations, tells us nothing about whether Bob rolled a 7. It seems just as likely that Jesus had 12 followers as it is that he had 8. I almost think you’re joking here.
Of course in response to challenges to about how there could be 12 when Judas left the group, Christians often claim that “the 12” is just a nickname of sorts. Thus, If 11 Disciples can be referred to as “the 12” , then so can 8 or 9. . Sorry G I don’t think
the choice of 12 disciples is some sort of random thing. You have already pointed out the significance of the 12 tribes, it seems reasonable to conclude that a man who may have believed he was the Messiah would chose 12 followers; particularly if he needed a ruler for each tribe . Besides even Koresh had more than 12 followers and that was before Facebook and Twitter!
MikeyS said
Its been suggested that Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist and when he separated to go his own way, some of John’s disciples joined him. Does this give an untruth that Jesus actually ‘chose’ them?
Doesn’t that depend on HOW they joined him? It’s certainly possible that he selected followers from among John’s or that they just decided to follow him once John was dead. It is instructive, though, that if John thought Jesus was the Messiah, that his followers who joined Jesus don’t seem to have called him The Messiah; to be sure, how much of tihis was part of the “secret teachings and is there even evidence that there were secret teachings
@manx said
There are clear indications that Judaism like all other Mesopotamian religions was Itself a Astrology based religion.
Such as? What are the “clear indications” note: the question isn’t whether stars are mentioned or appear in their religious rites, etc, but whether Judaism is Astrology based: That seems to suggest that the foundation of Judaism is Astrology.
Hi Spiker.
Two things suprise me which I have mentioned before.
Why didn’t John the Baptist didn’t join up with Jesus if he thought he was the Messiah? Surely he would have done so??
Secondly, why Jesus didn’t visit John in Prison to converse with him and pray with him and for him? Maybe even got him released even IF he was God or the Son of God? After all it was Jesus telling others to do just that or depart from him.
spiker said
gmatthews said
I make the same observation. Prof Ehrman has written that Jesus did choose twelve to represent the 12 tribes. He says, why not 9 or 13? I think that’s too convenient though. When it comes to numbers in both the OT and NT nothing is random about them. “12” is one of the most common numbers. There’s a website I found once that lists the number of times that different numbers are used in the Bible. If you take into account the various multiples of 12 like 12,000 (12 times 1,000) and 144,000 (12 squared times 1,000) then “12” in it’s various forms is used an insane number of times. Prof Ehrman makes sense out of a lot of things that I agree with, but this is one where I don’t agree with him. I think Jesus probably did have a core group of followers. Later, when Mark and the others wrote their gospels they wanted everything to harmonize so they stretched the truth on this and maybe Jesus had 8 core followers so Mark and the others added a few more not-so-inner-core followers to make a nice round number of 12.What’s the evidence? You can’t be suggesting that because 12 was an important number and used alot, that it was therefore falsely used in one of those cases. People who play craps value certain numbers. That those numbers appear alot in their conversations, tells us nothing about whether Bob rolled a 7. It seems just as likely that Jesus had 12 followers as it is that he had 8. I almost think you’re joking here.
Of course in response to challenges to about how there could be 12 when Judas left the group, Christians often claim that “the 12” is just a nickname of sorts. Thus, If 11 Disciples can be referred to as “the 12” , then so can 8 or 9. . Sorry G I don’t think
the choice of 12 disciples is some sort of random thing. You have already pointed out the significance of the 12 tribes, it seems reasonable to conclude that a man who may have believed he was the Messiah would chose 12 followers; particularly if he needed a ruler for each tribe . Besides even Koresh had more than 12 followers and that was before Facebook and Twitter!
Your quote of mine was the first of 2 or 3 other posts I’ve made recently on the number of disciples. In one of the others I said that I can’t discount that maybe there really were 12 because sometimes serendipity can be unfortunate to those of us looking back on the event. Or, maybe Jesus knew the value of having a symbolic 12. Regardless, I’ve found that there are a lot of scholars who don’t believe there were 12 disciples. How many scholars? I don’t know. Is Prof Ehrman in the majority with his view? I don’t know.
It doesn’t matter to me anyway because I hardly think the events described in the gospels played out quite like Christians think they did. In my most recent post on the question of the number of disciples I stated that I think the core of Jesus’ followers were Simon (nicknamed Petros, “the rock”), John and James (not his brother) who were nicknamed the sons of thunder. These were the only three who were given nicknames and I think that makes them special. Jesus had many followers and Mark says it is from those followers that he chose the 12. I think that aside from the three I named that there were other “close” followers that included Judas Iscariot (he must have been pretty close if he handled the money for the group) and maybe some of the other named disciples.
I see only two possibilities here: there were 12 and it either worked out that way serendipitously or Jesus wanted the symbolic value of 12 disciples. Or, there weren’t 12 but some other smaller number and the gospel writers used a common source (oral?) in all saying there were 12.
I’ve read recently that there are a lot of parallels between other uses of the number of 12 in the OT and the gospels claiming there were 12 disciples. One that I find interesting is that Jesus tells his disciples to go out into the world and spread the gospel and in the OT Moses sends 12 spies into Canaan to report on the Promised Land. There are others, but I find this one particularly poetic.
gmatthews said
spiker said
gmatthews said
I make the same observation. Prof Ehrman has written that Jesus did choose twelve to represent the 12 tribes. He says, why not 9 or 13? I think that’s too convenient though. When it comes to numbers in both the OT and NT nothing is random about them. “12” is one of the most common numbers. There’s a website I found once that lists the number of times that different numbers are used in the Bible. If you take into account the various multiples of 12 like 12,000 (12 times 1,000) and 144,000 (12 squared times 1,000) then “12” in it’s various forms is used an insane number of times. Prof Ehrman makes sense out of a lot of things that I agree with, but this is one where I don’t agree with him. I think Jesus probably did have a core group of followers. Later, when Mark and the others wrote their gospels they wanted everything to harmonize so they stretched the truth on this and maybe Jesus had 8 core followers so Mark and the others added a few more not-so-inner-core followers to make a nice round number of 12.What’s the evidence? You can’t be suggesting that because 12 was an important number and used alot, that it was therefore falsely used in one of those cases. People who play craps value certain numbers. That those numbers appear alot in their conversations, tells us nothing about whether Bob rolled a 7. It seems just as likely that Jesus had 12 followers as it is that he had 8. I almost think you’re joking here.
Of course in response to challenges to about how there could be 12 when Judas left the group, Christians often claim that “the 12” is just a nickname of sorts. Thus, If 11 Disciples can be referred to as “the 12” , then so can 8 or 9. . Sorry G I don’t think
the choice of 12 disciples is some sort of random thing. You have already pointed out the significance of the 12 tribes, it seems reasonable to conclude that a man who may have believed he was the Messiah would chose 12 followers; particularly if he needed a ruler for each tribe . Besides even Koresh had more than 12 followers and that was before Facebook and Twitter!
Your quote of mine was the first of 2 or 3 other posts I’ve made recently on the number of disciples. In one of the others I said that I can’t discount that maybe there really were 12 because sometimes serendipity can be unfortunate to those of us looking back on the event. Or, maybe Jesus knew the value of having a symbolic 12. Regardless, I’ve found that there are a lot of scholars who don’t believe there were 12 disciples. How many scholars? I don’t know. Is Prof Ehrman in the majority with his view? I don’t know.
It doesn’t matter to me anyway because I hardly think the events described in the gospels played out quite like Christians think they did. In my most recent post on the question of the number of disciples I stated that I think the core of Jesus’ followers were Simon (nicknamed Petros, “the rock”), John and James (not his brother) who were nicknamed the sons of thunder. These were the only three who were given nicknames and I think that makes them special. Jesus had many followers and Mark says it is from those followers that he chose the 12. I think that aside from the three I named that there were other “close” followers that included Judas Iscariot (he must have been pretty close if he handled the money for the group) and maybe some of the other named disciples.
I see only two possibilities here: there were 12 and it either worked out that way serendipitously or Jesus wanted the symbolic value of 12 disciples. Or, there weren’t 12 but some other smaller number and the gospel writers used a common source (oral?) in all saying there were 12.
I’ve read recently that there are a lot of parallels between other uses of the number of 12 in the OT and the gospels claiming there were 12 disciples. One that I find interesting is that Jesus tells his disciples to go out into the world and spread the gospel and in the OT Moses sends 12 spies into Canaan to report on the Promised Land. There are others, but I find this one particularly poetic.
The most reasonable explanation is that Jesus consciously selected 12 inner disciples as a symbol of his eschatological expectations for the restoration of Israel. On may put a lot of energy into explaining why 12 became a sacred number to ancient Jews, but that was the reality, and this belief was very old, ultimately derived from the annual twelve lunar rotations, seen as part of God’s structure of the world. It was thus hardly unique to Jews, but part of a broader religious tradition. In ancient Jewish historical accounts, they came to believe that there really was 12 tribes once, while the number may have been any odd value from 9 to 15, and changing over time. However , once a number has become a religious symbol, it is put to use, and that’s what Jesus did.
Apologies have not had the chance to log on the past few days. To prevent a over-long post i will break down some of my thoughts into smaller posts. For today I will try lay out my perspective.
When we read the bible today it is with a 21st century viewpoint. With the help of translators who turn put the words into modern speech, It is then natural that the reader (us) attaches our own morale standards and theology to the words.
What I have tried to do is not only put “Old Testament” back into it’s own time period but look at the culture that wrote it and the one’s that influenced it.
Israel and Judea positioned in the highlands of the Levant, were continually under the influence of two great civilisations, Egypt to one side and Mesopotamia to the other. To think that Judaism developed independently and uninfluenced is to my mind a blinkered approach. Whilst the “old testament” makes reference to both civilisations, a stronger case can be made for Judaism to be “born” from the Mesopotamian tradition.
As the “Gods” of Mesopotamia were representations of both astrological and natural elements it makes logical sense to look at the “old testament” and see how these traditions were used to write it. And as spiker has requested i will make my case in future posts.
Regardless of your “Religious” beliefs have a great Easter … I am off to make the final preparations for the traditional Easter party we through for family, friends and pretty much anyone who turns up 
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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