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Jesus says that
a. Queen of South and
b. people of Nineveh at Jonah’s time and
c. Jesus contemporaries
will experience “resurrection” concurrently
implying that Jesus own contemporaries will be dead and buried before the “resurrection” occurs
which should lead us to question whether Jesus saw “resurrection” and coming of “Kingdom of God” as simultaneous events.
Ok I think I see your point. I’ve always taken this passage to be a variation on Matthew 11:23 –
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
In this case if the ancients had seen what this generation has seen they would have repented. In the passage you quoted, the ancients repented with a lot less than you have seen.
I guess the answer depends on whether “rise up” in v42 is the same as “stand up” in v41 or if it does directly refer to the resurrection. Need a person who reads Greek.
Robert? Got a minute?
yes,
the main point in this, and which you quote, is that Jesus contemporaries should realize who jesus is/was and repent
I have been thinking, as await Dr Ehrman’s new book, how much Jesus really talked about afterlife, and I think it is very very little. or at lest what is reported of him speaking of afterlife.
asked Bart ** you do not have permission to see this link **
—————
about the resurrection
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does that mean this generation (Jesus contemporaries) and Queen of South/ Sheba and people of Ninevah all resurrect at the same time ?
—-He said
I suppose everyone does.
—-I said
yes that is what I thought, well seems like what English translation implies
everyone INCLUDING JESUS CONTEMPORARIES “resurrect” at the same time,
Then if Jesus contemporaries “resurrect” (in the way you feel resurrection is/was to occur)s, that means they have died and been in graves,
implying either
a. they did NOT see the Kingdom of Heaven during their time on earth (but that is what Jesus appeared to be preaching), or
b. the “resurrection” is a separate phenomenon than the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven, and these events MAY not be concurrent
—————–
but 2nd opinion from Robert or another would be helpful
Bit of context–Jesus had a thing for the Book of Jonah. Which is self-evidently not meant to be taken as a real event–it’s a fable. A teaching story. Jonah is a clownish figure, almost an anti-prophet, who does God’s will reluctantly, if not outright truculently. He’s no more based on a real person than Job.
But to Jesus, that isn’t the point of anything–Jonah was inside the whale three days, and then spewed up. A form of resurrection. God can make use of anyone He pleases to achieve His will. He obviously loved this story–why? Because he feels unequal to the task he believes has been set for him. Okay, he’s better than Jonah–he didn’t try to run away–but that isn’t saying much. And Jonah actually achieved his task–the salvation of Ninevah–whereas Jesus is failing to reach nearly enough people, and this time God is going to bring destruction down on most of humanity.
So (allowing for Matthew dressing things up a bit) there’s a lot of irony going on here. He’s not being completely serious. Anymore than John Lennon was, when he wrote this song–
(And yet he was martyred too. Be careful what you wish for……)
Queen of the South is Sheba. Queen in part of what is now Yemen. Not a Jew. In legend, a consort of Solomon, but she went back home. We’re told she converted to Judaism, but you know, the OT writers loved to say that about various monarchs of places that clearly remained non-Jewish. The idea was, you convert the king or queen, you get most people else to come along, but it never worked out as planned (ironically, it worked pretty well with Christianity, after Constantine).
And she’s going to rise and judge humanity? Not Solomon?
What else could Jesus mean here but that people who were not raised Jewish, but showed openness to Judaism (which he believed to be the only true religion) would have to be part of the Kingdom, because many if not most people in the Kingdom wouldn’t have been raised Jewish? Jesus didn’t know much about the world outside Palestine, but he knew Jews were in the minority everywhere else.
Therefore, most people of good will would not be Jewish. Therefore, most people in the Kingdom would not be Jewish, or at least they didn’t start out that way. “This generation” does not apply exclusively to Jews.
That sounds pretty open to gentiles.
Bren and Robert
in English translation
The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn. . .
sounds like they both stand up,
if
Bren will drive to Las Vegas with Robert and will do such and such . . .
I would be pretty sure both are driving, but maybe some nuance I dont see
but I will defer to your expertise
ok, agree this argument regarding when “resurrection’ occurs is not real convincing
there are just so few references to after life and/or resurrection (general resurrection not jesus resurrection) in gospels I am tryin to figure out what and when Jesus or if Jesus had an opinion on it
Robert said
As was Jonah being sent to Ninevah, and the Ninevites (not Jews) repented. This is the whole point of the book of Jonah. The sign of Jonah in Luke’s version of Q has nothing to do with Jonah being in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights or the Son of Man being buried in the heart of the earth. It is the repentance of gentiles in contrast to the rejection of the message of Jesus and his disciples by Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. The judgment of God was coming upon all who did not repent, including and perhaps especially the Jewish villages of Galilee.
All good points, and I certainly agree Jesus was adapting Jonah to his purposes. (How original of him.).
I’m sure he did love it for being such a good story, but is that really enough to make him use it as he did? Perhaps.
And it’s all a stretch, Robert. You know I’m fond of this type of analysis (so are many real scholars, though they do it better), and I find it often works well with more contemporary figures whose words we have access to. In Jesus’ case, as you know, the problem is that we can never be quite sure which words are his. Perhaps some of what he says about Jonah is retroactive–the analogy between Jonah in the ‘great fish’ and Jesus in the realm of death, both emerging to finish their work.
But to some extent, we all have to work with the material to hand.
since we are going slightly off topic hope you don’t mind.
another interesting point about Jonah’s story is that God’s activity is based upon human peoples’ response to God’s messenger and God’s call.
This is exactly opposite of how some scholars view Jesus’ apocalyptic message. The simplistic, I would say rather childish, view of the apocalyptic prophet is that God will bring the Kingdom of Heaven totally independent and irregardless of whether people respond to the message of God’s prophet or not. Prior scripture does not at all support this view.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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