One of the composite Jesuses likely was some sort of illegitimate son of Herod the Great and the surviving daughter of the king he deposed.
This Jesus was raised by Queen Helena.
For more information, one book to read is Herodian Messiah by Joseph Raymond.
The thought that Jesus was the Flavian Trinity refers to Jesus and the Son of Man as an adult, not at birth.
This Jesus was raised by Queen Helena. Her husband was called Monobazus, sole king; but, the only sole king was Herod the Great.
The King of Edessa may have been married to Queen Helena but he was not the biological father of Izates. Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.
Why would Queen Helena’s husband not be friends with Herod the Great? Her husband was close to Augustus. Rome trusted Herod the Great to be a client king.
Herod the Great would trust and ask a favor of Queen Helena’s husband, the wisest man Augustus knew, to raise his outsider son.
Original Post:
Steefen: I still wonder if Queen Helena was a queen of the Jews, her husband, a king of the Jews, their son, Izates, a prince and a king of the Jews after they converted to Judaism and lived in their palace in Jerusalem. I also wonder if Helena’s king who was recognized as wise by Augustus lost his protected status and was killed. The Babylonian Talmud says Jesus was given 40 days notice before sentencing and/or execution * because he was connected to government . *
Response (in memory of another person interested in the historical Jesus, Joseph Raymond, nonfiction author of Herodian Messiah and historical fiction author of Grandson of Herod):
Both Matthew and Luke herald a king being born. How does that happen unless that child were born of a king?
The ancestor list found in Luke, Ch. 3 appears to contain the names of Hasmonean kings. Who does ancestor lists just for the type of person Bart Ehrman makes of Jesus?
Jesus’ denied he was a son of David. See Matthew 22:41-45, Mark 12:35-37 and Luke 20:41-44. Herod the Great was not of the family tree of King David.
History records no slaughter of the innocents in Bethlehem. Herod knew exactly who he was looking for, but the gospels couldn’t admit that so a plausible story was created to cover the truth.
The family did flee the country returning only for a visit during Passover when he was 12.
Think about that – how did they get to Jerusalem during that trip? By caravan, and you don’t take a caravan from Nazareth to Jerusalem. You walk, like every one else. But you do take a caravan when you’re coming from a long distance.
– The private audience that Pilate granted Jesus is a courtesy generally only granted to Roman citizens.
– And then you have the Sanhedrin which had found him guilty of blasphemy but threw up their hands and claimed that they had no authority over him.
– Herod Archelaus, who would have been more than happy to eliminate a rival, said the same.
– The only class of citizen with that kind of immunity would have been a Roman citizen. Herod the Great, being a client king of Rome, was granted Roman citizenship.
Steefen: Okay, an illegitimate son of Herod the Great or maybe a grandson of Herod the Great was Jesus. Jesus did call the Temple his father’s House of Prayer. We may be talking about a son rather than a grandson. The Talmud says Jesus was connected to government. Maybe that means Jesus was illegitimately connected to government.
Bart Ehrman says we cannot trust the Palm Sunday account: 1) it was not triumphant and 2) not one palm branch was waved while people said: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. It is really tearful that Dr. Ehrman is going out on that limb. It is a limb because he cannot evidence Jesus did not stage an entrance of riding in on a donkey (or what have you) referencing kingship. Second, this should have been Jesus’ height of popularity; so, we *would* have been witnessing a triumph of, at least, his celebrity. This prophet of the placebo effect, this faith healer, this preacher, this deliverer of parables, this user of the invertor of Heron of Alexandria’s “miracle vase” which could have water poured in it then, when the vase was turned a different way, wine came out, this messenger of good news and this man who showed compassion for widows and children was celebrated and had a personal triumph. Jesus’ biggest spectacle would have been what would be his great fate or his tragic fate in Jerusalem.
In conclusion, the husband and sons of Queen Helena are not the only ones to lend royalty to the Jesus Story.
spiker said
Steefan
So you have Jesus being at one and the same time”some sort of illegitimate son of Herod the Great and also “the surviving daughter of the [deposed] king”?
With one swoop you’ve made mythicists look credible
Stephen said
Steefen you’re back! Thought you had abandoned us. Me? I’ll keep an open mind until I see the nine hour video.Why would Queen Helena’s husband not be friends with Herod the Great?
Maybe they wore the same robe to the party?
Stephen,
In memory of Joseph Raymond, a former lawyer and author of the nonfiction book and the fiction version of it, I hope to do the topic justice and get this “file” off my desk with the highest level of quality. I need to buy his fiction book before I continue.
I was enriched by the emails we exchanged before his death. I even wanted to retype his book because I’m a pretty good editor.
I remember telling him something to the effect of you cut a small window of opportunity for the deposed king’s daughter to have a conjugal visit with her patricidal husband.
Herod the Great was supposed to be pretty gross in his last days. Still, the reality may be that he impregnated his son’s wife.
Someone on the blog asked why Jesus had such an elevated view of himself and his father. Either the royalty of the deposed king on his mother’s side, or his father’s side, or if he’s part of Queen Helena royalty must be considered because there are Gospel references to his royalty. Jesus was somewhat entitled to certain actions.
spiker said
Steefan
So you have Jesus being at one and the same time “some sort of illegitimate son of Herod the Great and also the son of “the surviving daughter of the deposed king”?
Yes.
It answers the question, why was King Jesus of humble origin?
He was of humble origin because his mother was not a daughter of the reigning king, Herod the Great, but of the deposed king, Antigonus, killed by Mark Antony.
To make matters worse, she was the wife of Herod the Great’s son who wanted his father dead. Antipater entertained thoughts of patricide. He broke his father’s heart. Rome did not want Herod the Great to carry out capital punishment on his son, but Herod the Great did that.
Mary could not stay in the palace of her father-in-law for obvious reasons. Herod the Great probably did not have any use for her. She probably feared for her life. Mary could not find a place to stay because of her association with her husband.
Who is the father of Jesus? Was it Antipater or Herod the Great. Was the punishment death for Antipater and rape for the wife? Would Herod the Great have been so outraged. Probably. Herod the Great was not a moral man. He also was highly suspicious. He killed many of the deposed king’s family. Mary and whatever man, Joseph or by any other name, came to the aid of this woman needed to flee.
Alternatively, what if Herod the Great had sex with Queen Helena? Jesus would be a bastard of that union.
When Monobazus returned from Rome and found Queen Helena pregnant not with Iesus, but Izates, he did not cross Herod the Great or anyone else. He and his wife converted to Judaism and to further the ruse, Izates also converted to Judaism.
= = =
The timeline for Jesus not being a bastard because Antipater and his wife had sex barely permits that. When Antipater was thrown in jail for conspiracy to commit patricide/regicide, there may have been a conjugal visit or a bribe to create a conjugal visit.
Even if Jesus were not a bastard, shame would be upon his parents for the conspiracy to commit patricide/regicide.
After both Antipater and King Herod the Great had died and after Rome determined to go forward no longer with a sole king, Jesus would be on the outside and Mary, too could no longer be a royal central figure as was her trajectory had Antipater been more patient about the throne.
No, Jesus’ story is not served by Antipater being his father, the story is better served by Herod the Great being his father.
= = =
Both Queen Helena and Izates and Mary and Jesus were holy pairs.
The following makes Jesus the grandson of Herod the Great rather than the son of Herod the Great:
Joseph Raymond wrote, “Those named by Luke as ancestors of Jesus match, to a degree [not exactly], the lineage of [King] Antigonus.”
Regarding the Talmud’s claim that Jesus was the son of a soldier named “Pantera,” Joseph Raymond explains, “Pantera is a bastardization of the name of Jesus’ true father, Antipater, who lived in Rome most of his early life and assuredly commanded Roman auxiliary troops in Judea as coregent of the Jewish kingdom. “
Next, let us look at Chapter 3: Luke’s Genealogy [of Mary] in the book, Herodian Messiah by Joseph Raymond.
I approached this work as a lawyer constructs a legal brief. First collect the facts, next research the law, then analyze the law to the facts (with a healthy dose of returning to step one when the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle refuse to align). – From Joseph Raymond’s Summary Argument (Chapter 1)
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