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Jesus the Shapeshifter in Early Christian Tradition
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Stephen
4548 Posts
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April 27, 2025 - 7:30 pm

A Markan completist is one who is so fascinated, or say obsessed, with the gospel of Mark that he wishes to read everything ever written about the gospel. Good, bad, or middling.

I am so afflicted but suffer happily.

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Stephen
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April 28, 2025 - 3:39 pm

…Lohmeyer himself or even Adela Yarbro Collins, one of his fellow followers, who both date the gospel to sometime after the outbreak of the Judean war against Rome but before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I’m suspicious of claims that the gospel is being written in the heat of the action. Wordsworth famously defined poetry as “emotion recollected in tranquility”, acknowledging the thinking and reflection required to shape powerful feelings into poetry. The gospel of Mark is such a subtle piece of work that it’s hard to imagine it being written while bullets were whizzing past. But who knows? Maybe Joel Marcus is right and Mark was sitting up in Syria and that distance was enough. (But close enough to be getting regular reports from the “front”.)

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Robert
7102 Posts
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23
April 28, 2025 - 4:23 pm
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Colin Milton

1142 Posts
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April 28, 2025 - 9:10 pm

reply to post 14

Question: What is the significance of the fact that at one time such appearances are reported to us in Galilee, another time in Jerusalem; that one Evangelist follows only the Jerusalem tradition (Luke and the Gospel of John), another only the Galilean (so apparently Mark, then Matthew and the Gospel of Peter); that only the Gospel of John includes both traditions,

Answer: It tells you where the author of the gospel was located when gathering up the stories to create the book. The people of Galilee had stories about Galilee and the people of Jerusalem had stories about Jerusalem.

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Stephen
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April 29, 2025 - 2:21 pm

Uh oh.

I’ve been reading a commentary on Mark by James R Edwards for PNTC (The Pillar New Testament Commentary). The overall point of view is conservative evangelical so I was somewhat surprised when Edwards voiced the opinion that the original ending of Mark has been lost! I’ve been pretty much convinced that 16:8 is the original ending but I’ve never been quite able to completely shake loose of the possibility of a lost ending. Edwards makes a really strong argument. I won’t go into all the details until I have a chance to chew on it some more but he did bring up one aspect that I had been thinking about myself, how the acceptance of an ending at 16:8 plays into a lot of modern literary and cultural assumptions that would have probably not been shared by the ancients.

I’m not convinced yet but don’t be surprised if in the relatively near future a new thread appears…

…Mark may have thought of Galilee and nearby regions as the jumping off point…

I’ve mentioned that in his commentary on 1 Enoch, Nickelsburg points out that in the Hellenistic Period the Galilee was a hotbed of apocalyptic thought. One can then imagine Jesus being raised in the afterglow of such a milieu. There is a disconnect somewhere though. Mark may have expected the Parousia in Galilee post-Temple destruction but we know from Paul that the leadership of the Jesus sectarian movement had relocated to Jerusalem within twenty years of Jesus’ death. Luke obviously knows this too. Did they expect the Parousia in Jerusalem because the resurrection appearances occurred there? Did Jesus and his disciples originally go to Jerusalem at the Passover because they expected the Parousia there?

I’m curious about what happened to the community left behind by Jesus in Galilee when he made his final ill-fated journey. This assumes of course that there were folks left behind. Are we to assume that everybody packed up and went to Jerusalem? But surely even then some of them went back, right? We hear about Jewish Jesus sectarian groups well into the second century.

I like Prof Ehrman’s idea of taking your time machine and going back and observing six months before the crucifixion and six months after. I couldn’t go of course. Not just the lack of languages but I’m a six foot tall, broad shouldered Celt who would stand two heads taller than the people there. I would stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, a perfect target. You would need a cadre of folks who could fit in physically but also have enough background in Aramaic that they could quickly pick up the local dialects. Time Travel movies never think of stuff like this. Everyone looks like us and they all speak English with bad accents.

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Robert
7102 Posts
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April 29, 2025 - 2:47 pm
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Porphyry

1835 Posts
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April 29, 2025 - 3:16 pm

I think a good reason to suspect Mark didn’t end at 16:8 is that ending the entire work with the conjunction “gar” is just weird.

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Robert
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April 29, 2025 - 6:37 pm
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Stephen
4548 Posts
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April 29, 2025 - 7:54 pm

I own that book! You know how you buy a book but because you’re in the middle of something else you put it aside and never get back to it until after a time you are reminded of it? Which is good because at this point I seem to only read books that cost $200 after I search for six months to find a cheap copy.

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Robert
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April 29, 2025 - 8:12 pm
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Stephen
4548 Posts
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May 1, 2025 - 6:22 pm

Well I have lots of used books. I was once opening boxes of books after a move and discovered I had three copies of an obscure book about travel in the ancient world. Two I can understand, but three? Jeez. I know when I die I’ll leave some books on the shelves unread simply because I haven’t got to them. The Japanese have a word for it. Tsundoku. Bought books never read.

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Robert
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May 1, 2025 - 6:47 pm
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Colin Milton

1142 Posts
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33
May 2, 2025 - 10:40 am

The Supplement-
John 1 explains the mystery of The Transfiguration (Mark 9). The Word became Flesh. Hence there is two states of existence and matter: The Spiritual and Temporal/Natural.

Lexicology-
Shapeshifter was not included as a word in the 1611 authorized English version, nor is Shapeshifter listed in the 1828 Webster dictionary of the English language.

The Argument-
Introducing newly invented synonymous words does not enhance nor change the meaning of the original authorized English version of the Bible.
Transfiguration and Shapeshifter are synonymous in this Pragmatism of linguistic context.

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Stephen
4548 Posts
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34
May 2, 2025 - 4:51 pm

As a card carrying Bibliomaniac I am obsessed with the lexicon of my malady. Today I learned some new words.

A Librocubicularist is someone who likes to read in bed.

In 1805 Sir Walter Scott wrote a poem wherein he apparently first coined the lovely word, Book-Bosomed, meaning “to carry a book at all times”.

A Biblioklept, of course, one who steals books. I cannot remember ever stealing a book. Really though the lowest form of life is he who would borrow a book and never return it.

A Bibliotaph is one who hoards books. This interesting word comes from Greek through French (bibliotaphe). A Greek tomb is known as a Taphos. Is a library a temple or a tomb?

More French; a Bouquiniste is a dealer in secondhand books. Oh noble profession!

My paternal grandfather was a carpenter who also built furniture. When he died his surviving creations had been divided among relatives and friends. I wound up with a waist-high standalone bookcase. I repainted it and use it for books which I secure but have not yet read. It usually remains full since books removed are invariably replaced. This bookcase, sitting empty in a room, is one of the signs of the apocalypse. It is an awesome thought that my reading habits might be all that stands between us and utter annihilation. Fortunately I take my duties very seriously.

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Robert
7102 Posts
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35
May 2, 2025 - 5:05 pm
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Stephen
4548 Posts
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36
May 3, 2025 - 1:47 pm

Back for a bit to James R Edwards and his commentary for PNTC (The Pillar New Testament Commentary) and his conservative evangelical outlook. Occasionally strange to read a commentary that mostly accepts the critical/historical approach yet is written from a definite previously assumed faith position.

There is a note where he quotes Origen about some matter and then indicates that Origen was “wrong”. Odd reading a scholar pointing out Origen’s views and then feeling the need to “correct” them.

Even with his sophisticated views – he’s clearly not a fundamentalist – Edwards is still writing from the assumption that the events depicted in Mark’s gospel are historically accurate. This makes his discussion of the so-called “Markan Sandwich” odd because it is obviously a literary technique, yet he treats the detailed events as if they are sequential history. This approach also results in a long discussion where he tries to formulate a scenario where the Roman Centurion at the crucifixion (15:39) can actually pronounce a Christian affirmation of Jesus’ status as Son of God. Assuming this episode must be historical removes Edwards’ ability to arrive at what is the simplest solution, that this is a Markan invention to make a theological point about Jesus’ relationship with gentile believers.

His being a conservative evangelical makes Edwards’ view of a “lost” ending even more fascinating because it raises all kinds of theological questions as well as historical ones. Edwards’ never addresses them interestingly enough. Namely, how can God’s inspired scripture be lost?

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Colin Milton

1142 Posts
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37
May 3, 2025 - 1:56 pm

It seems to be a synonym of Transfiguration.

trans: to transition (verb), to shift (verb)
figure: a shape, a form (noun)
ation: verb to noun participle suffix

shape: a figure, form (noun)
shift: to transition (verb)
er: verb to noun participle suffix

Transfiguration (noun) = Shapeshifter (noun)

The (definite article) shapeshiftive (adjective) shapeshifter (noun) shapeshifted (Simple aspect of the Past tense, verb)

The Transfiguration: The shapeshiftive shapeshifter shapeshifted.

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