>> I know that one sizeable group of them runs the outdoor produce markets in Ireland.
>> They are/were called Picts because they painted pictures on their faces.
Sorry, I’m going to need a source for the claim that there are Picts running produce markets in Ireland.
The Picts were in Scotland, not Ireland, and they disappeared as a distinct group over 1000 years ago.
Porphyry said
>> I know that one sizeable group of them runs the outdoor produce markets in Ireland.
>> They are/were called Picts because they painted pictures on their faces.
Sorry, I’m going to need a source for the claim that there are Picts running produce markets in Ireland.
The Picts were in Scotland, not Ireland, and they disappeared as a distinct group over 1000 years ago.
I saw a video about Ireland some years back. They filmed the produce markets in Dublin and talked about this group and who they were. I didn’t save the name or the link to the video, but perhaps you can still find it on YouTube or something if you are really interested. It was a documentary-type video.
I’ve also met a few who have immigrated to the United States. They are smaller in stature than the average person. They say that smallness is an adaptation to limited resources. I’m assuming that the Picts were settled in Britain during that last ice age, but I’m not sure.
You saw a YouTube video some years ago and can’t remember the name, but based on it showing people with painted faces running produce markets in Ireland, you are confident in contradicting the consensus of ethnographers, namely, that the Picts, as an identifiable ethnic group, that only existed in northern Britain, ceased to exist more than a millennium ago.
I mean, yeah, if you have a video on YouTube with reliable evidence of an historically continuous, identifiable Pictish ethnographic population, the scholarly community would extremely interested in it.
Porphyry said
You saw a YouTube video some years ago and can’t remember the name, but based on it showing people with painted faces running produce markets in Ireland, you are confident in contradicting the consensus of ethnographers, namely, that the Picts, as an identifiable ethnic group, that only existed in northern Britain, ceased to exist more than a millennium ago.
I mean, yeah, if you have a video on YouTube with reliable evidence of an historically continuous, identifiable Pictish ethnographic population, the scholarly community would extremely interested in it.
They no longer paint their faces.
A lot of people were displaced from Britain to Ireland over the centuries.
I watched the video myself, saw it with my own two eyes, and listened with both ears. I know what I saw and heard.
If people are really interested in the subject, they can do a search program on it themselves. I honestly don’t have the “free” time to do it for you or for other people.
I’ve told you what I’ve seen, what I know, and how I know it. That is the best I, or anyone, can do.
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The **Picts** (Latin *Picti*, meaning “painted ones”) were an ancient confederation of peoples who lived in what is now eastern and northern Scotland (roughly from the late Iron Age into the early medieval period, fading as a distinct identity by the 9th–10th centuries).
The name is widely understood to refer to their practice of body painting or tattooing (with designs, figures, or dyes such as woad).
This is the standard historical explanation, though some modern scholars debate whether it was primarily paint, permanent tattooing, or a Roman nickname that the people themselves may not have fully adopted.
They have **no connection** to running outdoor produce (farmers’) markets in Ireland, either historically or today.
– The Picts’ core territory was Scotland, not Ireland (though related or overlapping groups sometimes appear in early Irish sources under the name *Cruithni*/*Cruithin*).
– Modern outdoor produce and farmers’ markets across Ireland are run by local growers, farmers, artisan producers, and independent traders.
There is no ethnic, historical, or contemporary group called “Picts” associated with them.
DavidFord said
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The **Picts** (Latin *Picti*, meaning “painted ones”) were an ancient confederation of peoples who lived in what is now eastern and northern Scotland (roughly from the late Iron Age into the early medieval period, fading as a distinct identity by the 9th–10th centuries).
The name is widely understood to refer to their practice of body painting or tattooing (with designs, figures, or dyes such as woad).
This is the standard historical explanation, though some modern scholars debate whether it was primarily paint, permanent tattooing, or a Roman nickname that the people themselves may not have fully adopted.
They have **no connection** to running outdoor produce (farmers’) markets in Ireland, either historically or today.
– The Picts’ core territory was Scotland, not Ireland (though related or overlapping groups sometimes appear in early Irish sources under the name *Cruithni*/*Cruithin*).
– Modern outdoor produce and farmers’ markets across Ireland are run by local growers, farmers, artisan producers, and independent traders.
There is no ethnic, historical, or contemporary group called “Picts” associated with them.
In the video I watched, they were certainly a group of people who were smaller in stature than most people.
They may no longer call themselves or go by the name Picts.
Can you do a check just for the farmers’ markets in Dublin?
“neighbors of my own.
The third one in a row, all doing drugs.
The first ones got evicted, the second one died, the ones that are there now, I am actually praying for.
They have children, and I really do think they have potential if they could just get off the stuff.
I even had a conversation with one of them about getting off the ‘supplements’ and going with God’s and JC’s Spirit.
I don’t get involved with them too much, however.
Maybe I can pray for them a bit more, and things will be better for all of us”
Michael Van Vlymen, _School of the Supernatural: Walking in Our Inheritance as Sons of God_ (2017), 144pp, on 89
I have looked at the lives of many men and women of God who had incredible, miracle-filled ministries and the common theme with all of them is that they prayed until they had breakthrough.
Do you want supernatural results when you pray?
Then purpose within yourself that you will not stop until victory.
Decide that you will continue to declare the power of God over a situation until it bows its knee in submission to the name of Christ.
…
I was led to pray for someone who had a life-threatening illness a few years ago.
The Lord told me to fast and pray for two weeks, and so I did.
At the end of that two weeks, I was taken into the spirit realm to deal directly with the evil spirit who was afflicting them.
I simply commanded him to leave, and although he was not happy about it, he left.
The person was healed right then.
Praise God.
on 92-93:
…I suddenly realized this is not normal.
Something rose up in me and I began to rebuke the work of the enemy.
I went down into the basement where I can get loud and have lots of floor space to pace while I pray.
I went after the spirit of division and contention and strife for all I was worth.
My warfare session lasted about two hours, and after two hours, I felt I was done.
You know how it feels sometimes when the burden lifts.
It’s like a weight comes off of you.
…
Many would say this is foolish.
‘Really? You prayed for two hours just because your wife and daughter didn’t want to shop together?’
The Lord spoke to me in this situation.
Why do we wait until our lives are out of control and going to hell in a handbasket before we rise up and take authority and correct the situation?
How bad does something have to stink in our home before we locate it and throw it out?
How much of the enemy’s presence and influence is OK with us?
…
What was I saying or praying, many have asked.
Being led of the Spirit, I was saying…
“I rebuke you in Jesus’ name!
I take authority over you!
I loose my family from your influence!
I speak destruction upon you!
I bind your evil work!
I command the destruction of the plans of the enemy over my wife and daughter!
I command you to go!”
Etc.
You are in effect doing warfare by royal decree based on your position in Christ at God’s own right hand.
…
you probably know the scriptures about our authority in Christ.
…
The reason these spirits stand and stare seemingly unaffected is because they want you to believe that your words have no power against them and no authority over them.
They want you to believe that.
It is not true, it is a trick.
…
If you are commanding someone’s healing and they are not healed, or the healing has not manifested, it just wants you to believe that your words or prayers have no effect.
The sickness must bow its knee to the authority of Jesus Christ.
Must is the key word here.
Evil spirits will hang on as long as they possibly can, resisting you, because they know from past experience that most believers will grow weary and give up.
…
If you want to be someone who moves in extraordinary power, be a person of extraordinary prayer.
…
Believe the Word and stand on it and don’t back down, and you will see miracles.
Michael Van Vlymen, _How To Do Spiritual Warfare Workbook_ (2014), 101pp., on 82-84
I had been praying for other things when she called, but something rose up in me that said enough is enough.
I began binding the work of the enemy in their lives.
…
I spent the next _two hours_ pacing the basement floor decreeing the power and peace of God over my wife and daughter, and warring on their behalf.
About four hours later they came through the door laughing and smiling.
…
If you can name the thing that is manifesting in your family or in someone’s life, you can bind it, defeat it and cast it out.
Like rebellion and rejection, we can come against anything and everything not of God and *change the situation*!
Address situations like this every day until there is complete victory.
Do not stop!
Do it in your own words or exactly like me if you want.
Know that you have a legal right by the Word to speak these changes to come to pass, and keep at it.
‘In Jesus name I bind the spirit of rebellion in ________.
I bind you in every way by the power of the blood and name of Jesus Christ and on the authority of the Word.
I bind all manifestation, transference and communication in Jesus’ name.
I bind every spirit and evil being working with or giving power to these spirits, in Jesus’ name.
I command you to loose my child.
I decree that you are a defeated foe, and you have no legal right to stay and afflict them.
From God’s own right hand I command you to loose them and go.
I loose the resources of Heaven against you.
I decree that there will be nothing of your evil work left standing.
I claim and decree over ________ the complete redemption and restoration power of the blood of Jesus and the manifest power of the Holy Spirit in their life.
…
In Jesus’ name I bind the spirit ___inferiority / insecurity____.
I bind all manifestation, communication and transference of any kind.
I bind all related spirits and your work.
I decree and command that all of your work and influence is destroyed.
I take authority over you by the authority of the Word.
I command you to go in Jesus’ name.
You are a defeated foe.
The Lord Jesus spoiled principalities and powers, and openly made a show of you.
You must go in Jesus’ name.
I decree the blessings of God upon __________.
I loose perfect love and the knowledge of who _______ is in Christ upon them.
I speak and declare boldness in the Holy Ghost upon _________.
I decree the righteousness of Christ covers them.
…
In Jesus’ name, I bind the spirit of ___anger___ in _________.
I bind all of your manifestation, communication and transference.
I command that all of your evil work is destroyed in Jesus’ name.
The Word says that “These signs shall follow those who believe: in My name they shall cast out devils.”
I am a believer, and I now exercise my authority over you and cast you out.
Loose ________ in Jesus’ name and go.
…
someone… You are not trying to subjugate their will in any way, but rather to loose their will from any and all evil influences…
most people don’t want to be miserable, and once they have a measure of freedom they can wholeheartedly receive and embrace it.
on 85:
I had been praying every day for someone who I knew needed deliverance.
I would spend an hour or so in prayer and warfare…
Things change in the spiritual realm _every time_ we pray.
We have assurance from the Lord so we continue until the victory is won.
“check just for the farmers’ markets in Dublin”
I got nothing.
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**There is no well-known or documented group of people of smaller-than-average stature who specifically “run” or are characteristically associated with the farmers’ markets in Dublin.**
Dublin’s outdoor produce and farmers’ markets (Temple Bar Food Market, St. Anne’s Park, Airfield Estate, Honest2Goodness, Herbert Park, People’s Park in Dún Laoghaire, Moore Street traders, etc.) are operated by a mix of local Irish farmers/growers, artisan producers, bakers, and independent stallholders of ordinary adult height. No ethnic, occupational, or physical-stature group matching the description is linked to them in reliable sources.
### Possible connections to earlier messages
– The previous reference to “Picts” (the ancient painted/tattooed peoples of Scotland, sometimes called *Cruithni* in Irish sources) has no modern link to Dublin markets. Some older folklore occasionally portrayed “Pechts” as small in stature, but that is mythic, not factual, and unrelated to contemporary markets.
– Irish folklore’s “little people” (fairies, leprechauns) are mythical beings of small stature, but they do not operate real-world produce stalls.
If this is a riddle, cryptic clue, description of a specific stallholder/family you have in mind, or a continuation of the earlier Picts wordplay, feel free to give more details and I’ll try to help further.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
**No specific well-known YouTube video matches the description of people with painted faces actively running (i.e., operating/selling at) produce or farmers’ markets.**
Searches turn up many ordinary videos of:
– Face-painting *as entertainment* at farmers’ markets (children or adults getting temporary designs painted on them by artists).
– Artists painting portraits of market vendors.
– General market footage, ASMR role-plays, or unrelated painted-face events (festivals, historical reenactments of Picts, etc.).
None show a group of people who already have their faces painted and are the ones running the produce stalls, particularly in an Ireland/Dublin context or linked to the earlier “Picts” references.
The earlier statements in this conversation (Picts running Irish outdoor produce markets because they painted their faces; smaller-stature people at Dublin farmers’ markets) do not correspond to any documented real group, historical fact, or notable video. The ancient Picts were a people in Scotland known for body painting/tattooing; they have no connection to modern Irish markets.
If you have a specific video title, channel name, link, or more details (or if this is part of a riddle/joke), share them and I can look further.
=========
Perplexity was useless.
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I did a search on the Cruithin. There were some sites that stated that they are the same people as the Picts.
It would take some real time to do some real research on the subject.
There is history, and then there is written history. Not all history is written down or recorded.
And not all history that is written is recorded accurately.
There are people who understand their lineage to go back to the very first people who settled in Ireland and Britain. What they call themselves and how they integrate and relate to the other people there is a different matter.
They may not, for certain reasons, be too public about it or want to make a big deal about it.
Not everyone’s history can be found on the internet or in AI. Not everyone’s history is recorded by historians, nor is it always recorded accurately.
>> They may not, for certain reasons, be too public about it or want to make a big deal about it.
>> Not everyone’s history can be found on the internet or in AI. Not everyone’s history is recorded by historians, nor is it always recorded accurately.
But I thought the reason you could assure us there were still Picts around, running produce markets in Dublin, was that you’d see them in a YouTube video.
Helen said:
I didn’t mean to make light of the seriousness and strangeness shown in the link you provided.
What I wrote was just part of what came to mind, and something I’ve been thinking about for some time.
Maybe allowing some people to be culturally centric and celebrate their own specialness will help a bit. – – But rewriting the whole history and script on Jesus is just going too far, and just way out there.
———————————————————————-
Everyone makes Jesus look like them. I’ve seen pictures of Jesus depicted as every race there is.
You’re right. They do.
If we set aside for a moment the fact that the historical Jesus was Jewish, and those espousing that he wasn’t are almost all antisemitic, I find it troubling that they are transforming him into a figure animated by hate, a replica of themselves.
Steefen said
@Serene
This guy says Jesus went to Petra.
Start at 8:47 when Jesus is 15.
Oh wow, nice find! I’ll ask my AI to sum up his reasoning haha
I know when I first hit upon my Petra hypothesis, I was like no! I want my jesus to be a poor! But you know, being a ‘poetic’ slave in jewish law for being the ‘poetic’ son of a handmaid while being free in other ANE law is a type of woah. i’m so grateful to better systems
dansanta2003 said
Serene said
“We Jews”
John 4:22Interestingly, in the New Testament, even though King Herod the Great is given the ʻKing of the Jews’ title by the Roman Senate historically, he is only show discomfited that a ‘King of the Jews’ has been declared by Eastern traditions in Matthew 2 and don’t give him that title; Eastern traditions imo presumably necessitates lineage.
Jesus’ Jewish lineage isn’t contested by Jewish scholars either. Neither is his Davidic lineage. Pedigree collapse made it common anyway.
So you can be considered Jewish through conversion and have patrilineally foreign and matrilineally foreign lineage.
• Herod the Great’s dad is Antipater the Edomite and his mother is Cypros the Nabataean, per Josephus.
Did Herod only practice Judaism? He built three temples to Caesar Augustus. His Herodium was designed in a divinizing architectural language (likely a part of why Epiphanius said the Herodians worshipped Herod the Great.) Herod had frescoes depicting humans inside, and statues depicting himself right outside Jewish borders. It’s safe to say thatbhe was multicultural, but no hard evidence exists of him tributing Augustus (though Herod Phillip put Augustus’ temple on his coins).My hypothesis is that Jesus is patrilineally of the Nabataean kingdom, imo referred to as the Kingdom of God because indirect descriptors are how they utilize titles in certain situations. I think he considers it a more original religion to Abraham in Mesopotamian Ur as part of the Antiquarian Revival, which then picked up Canaanite and Egyptian commonalities.
There’s actually several people in the Hebrew Bible with patrilineally foreign fathers who are treated as normal Israelites and Jews in their own stories.
1. John 4:22 it’s actually a good counter-argument. The salvation is of the jews. I think with a bit of stretch this can be argued otherwise. Jesus doesn’t say “we jews” in the original text. The literal translation is:
You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Because Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan woman, the assumed blanks were filled with “You Samaritans” and “we Jews”. But Jesus doesn’t actually say he is a Jew.
The entire pericope is about Jesus sitting at the Jacob’s well in Samaria and asking a woman to give him water, because he is thirsty; she is surprised that a Jew, who observes purity rituals and does not eat nor drink from and with others, like Samaritans, is asking her this. This should be considered an argument against Jesus’s jewishness; he was passing as a Jew, but because he was opened to non-Jews, he might’ve not be one. Jacob is called the “father” of the Samaritans; Jesus seems to connect with the Israelite/Hebrew ancestors. It seems also to be related with the place of worship:20 Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you all say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 Yet the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father seeks such to worship Him.So Jesus makes an inclusive move here, including Samaritans, disregarding the necessity of Jerusalem in order to worship God. Who ever wrote John must’ve been Jewish; I believe John is the most Jewish gospels of all. So yeah, John seems to portray a very Jewish Jesus.
2. If I’m not mistaken, Herod was a king over a norther region, that included jews and other people, thus a mixed people. Judea in itself was governed by the Romans. Not sure how Herod could call himself the “king of jews” in a mixed area and not even over Judea. Then again, Jesus or his disciples never insisted to be called the “king of jews”; it seems that only the Romans or the Jews themselves came with this false accusation so Jesus can be killed for rebellion. Also the episode with the killing of the babies seem not be historical. There is no evidence for it, but then again, what evidence is for everything?
3. We are talking about the “historical Jesus” here; otherwise, the biblical Jesus is literally everything, including a David descendant. But historians pretty much agree that David’s lineage was extinct centuries before Jesus was ever born. I might be wrong, but this is what I read a long time ago; not sure if this was updated. Jesus couldn’t be a real David descendant; it was later added in the gospel in order to fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah.
4. You are about half correct: you can claim membership to the ethnicity of the Jews through the rule of blood: if your mom is jewish, then so are you. This is not unheard of, Hungarians for example have the same rule, my son for example has Hungarian citizenship because his mom is Hungarian. Patriarchal lineages are not to be confused with “asking for citizenry” though; they prove a kingship request. For example, a descendant of David might claim the throne. However, all of these fail because Jesus never insisted to claim membership to the Jews ethnicity (and usually it’s claimed for benefits), and actually quite set himself apart, inviting Gentiles into his new religion.
5. Herod the Great was not a Jew; neither by ethnicity nor by culture. Everybody knew this and thus there was a resentment against him. This is actually the rule in societies: the aristocracy is of the invaders, a different race of the locals that are their subjects. For example, the Normans in the British isles.
6. That is something that I very much agree: Jesus has to be coming from a mixed background. He wasn’t pure Jewish neither he insisted to be called such. He was probably referring to himself as an Israelite. He tried to conduct a revival of the older religion of the Hebrews, including a new theory of a Kingdom of God, probably taken from Daniel + the Greek myths. He had arguments with the Jewish priesthood class, Pharisees and Sadducees. For Levites, it seems that these were rather neutral, they were just some service providers. Jesus main nature of the polemic was that the Jews corrupted the ancient religion of the Hebrews. Even today Pharisee means hypocrite. What is something that I don’t agree is if you’ll ever try to make the Kingdom of God an earthly Kingdom; I think the gospels are very clear in that regard: Jesus was speaking of the Kingdom of God in the after-life, with people resurrecting in bodies. This is unheard of in the actual Jewish religion of that time (and actually Hebrew religion, if you except Daniel – but even Daniel might not be Hebraic, if it’s true it’s a forgery, it’s placed 150 AD, thus, centuries after the Hebrews).
7. Correct; they are treated as Israelites. But I have high doubts that they were treated as Jews. Jews is one tribe that happened to be majoritarian after 500 years from the original Hebrews. Sure that some smaller tribes, given the fact that they worshiped and observed kind of the same thing, would might call themselves “jews” in front of the strangers like Greeks and Romans. Galileans for example can present themselves as “jews” or “other jews” in front of Greeks. It’s the same today for example in UK that a person would call himself “English” (the proper term is British) in foreign countries, despite he’s not actually English; he might be Scottish, Welsh, Irish, but these are the details for prolonged discussions, not for the meet and greet discussions. Sure a Scott would be upset to call him English; but not so in a foreign country by someone else. He will understand the ignorance and just smile.
Good call on John 4:22 and glad we found common logic on point six.
My ai says that the typical phrasing as found in other koine greek texts may simply infer the “we Jews”, but there’s an important distinction, If you are to lead over a multi-ethnic coalition, then it’s not proper form to state your ethnos (ethnicity), you state something about your royal house when asked, so that’s how Jesus throws it back to Pontius:
33 Pilate then went back inside the palace,summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate.
I mean Pilate looks like he’s “in on it”, a Akitu festival-type investiture (The Passion of Marduk) that is then followed by the Sar Puhi substitute king ritual for the lunar eclipse, or the authors are portraying him to be. “What is truth?” is like particularly Mandaean.
“Not of this world” doesn’t just mean heavenly if you’re going back to the Sumero-Akkadian times, it means not of the civilized people (them). Sumerian cuneiform was decoded in the 4th c BCE and it was responsible for the slow wave of the Antiquarian Revival.
Serene:
Oh wow, nice find! I’ll ask my AI to sum up his reasoning haha
I know when I first hit upon my Petra hypothesis, I was like no! I want my jesus to be a poor! But you know, being a ‘poetic’ slave in jewish law for being the ‘poetic’ son of a handmaid while being free in other ANE law is a type of woah. i’m so grateful to better systems
Steefen:
Cool. I’ll check back.
Btw this is why I ‘block-chained’ all my five years of comments on Dr. Ehrman’s forum so I can declare
📯📯📯📯📯FIRST🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺
🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
Some people run into one part of the puzzle, some people have another. I’ve found two people on the Internet that clock Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands and Frontier Lands (found after I arrived at that conclusion) as Moses, for another example, but often then they have another part totally wrong for how my whole puzzle fits together.
Noone has my full copyrighted history of the civilized world, “How Government Made God”
dances making eyebrows that say FIRST
BJH1960 said
Helen said:
In the Gospels, Jesus is reported to have gone to the synagogues a lot, and that it was his “custom”.
He talked and preached primarily to the Jewish people during his earthly ministry.
He seems to know good portions of the Jewish law and the Torah.That he was Jewish is so obvious one would be dumbstruck in reading the outlandish claim that he wasn’t if one weren’t aware of why it is being made.
What I find interesting is not the claim, which no serious scholar entertains, but whether there are any who make it who aren’t antisemitic, excepting dansanta2003, of course, who assures us, despite his rabid ranting and raving, he is not.
If Jesus wasn’t Jewish, why would he go around preaching and talking to only or mostly the Jews? Why wouldn’t he go somewhere else and start talking to other people?
Paul clearly states that Jesus was “born under the law”. Galatians 4:4
Not just any serious scholar, but any thinking person, and/or any thinking and honest person.
Serene:
I’ve found two people on the Internet that clock Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands and Frontier Lands (found after I arrived at that conclusion) as Moses.
Steefen:
I discuss Moses in in my book Historical Accuracy so I checked with chatgpt:
That identification is not considered historically accurate or established by Egyptological evidence.
There is a real Egyptian official named Thutmose who held an office connected with foreign lands/frontier territories, but the leap from Thutmose → Moses is not supported.
The confusion probably comes from several genuine similarities:
- Thutmose is an Egyptian name meaning roughly “Born of Thoth” (Djehutymes).
- Moses is the Hebrew name Mosheh (מֹשֶׁה), traditionally connected in Exodus 2:10 with the Hebrew verb māšâ, “to draw out.”
- Egyptian names ending in -mose / -ms / -mes are common: Ahmose, Thutmose, Ramesses, etc.
- There really were Egyptian officials whose responsibilities included foreign lands and frontier regions.
But “Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands and Frontier Lands = biblical Moses” is a modern identification, not an established ancient identification.
And there’s an important distinction from the passage you just quoted:
Osarseph is a much stronger literary identification with Moses
Manetho, as quoted by Josephus, actually says:
Osarseph → changed his name → Moses.
That’s explicit.
For Thutmose, by contrast, we don’t have an ancient Egyptian or Jewish source saying:
Thutmose → changed his name → Moses.
Nor do we have evidence that this particular Thutmose led the Israelites out of Egypt, confronted Pharaoh, received the Torah, or anything comparable.
So, if you’re evaluating competing candidates:
Manetho’s Osarseph:
→ ancient source explicitly equates him with Moses
→ historically unverified, but a genuine ancient Moses identification.
Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands/Frontier Lands:
→ real Egyptian official
→ possible source of speculation because of his name/title
→ no ancient evidence equating him with Moses.
= = = =
I also used David Rohl’s book, Exodus: Myth or History.
= = = =
This is from my book:
Moses
A Delta pharaoh at Avaris named Palmanothes had a daughter, Princess Meriss. In approximately the year 1535 BCE, she found a baby and decided to keep him. When Palmanothes ruled in the Delta, another pharaoh ruled south of there. His name was Sobek-hotep IV and his coronation name was Kha-nefer-re, Khenophres in Greek. Kha-nefer-re was the prenomen (coronation name) of Sobekhotep IV, 29th ruler of the 13th dynasty. Sobekhotep IV married Palmanothes’ daughter, Princess Meriss and became the step-father of Princess Meriss’ find, the biblical Moses. The Bible does not tell us the name of the pharaoh-stepfather of Moses. The ancient historian, Artapanus of Alexandria does.
And Artapanus says, in his book Concerning the Jews…
…Palmanothes succeeded to the sovereignty.
This king behaved badly to the Jews; and first, he built Kessa, and founded the temple therein, and then built the temple in Heliopolis.
He begat a daughter, Merris, whom he betrothed to a certain Chenephres [Kha-nefer-re, Khenophres in Greek: Sobekhotep IV], king of the regions above Memphis [but below the region of the Delta where Merris lived] (for there were at that time many kings in Egypt); and she being barren took a suppositious [based on assumption rather than fact] child from one of the Jews, and called him Mouses (Moses)…
Eusebius. Praeparatio Evangelica Book IX. Chapter XXVII.
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On the Wadi Hammamat stela, Sobekhotep IV’s first son is listed as Sobek-hotep Mio.
According to the Bible, after fleeing from Egypt at age forty, Moses returned from exile in the Sinai wilderness at age eighty to be confronted by a different pharaoh who “would not let his people go.” If Moses returned to the Delta region where he was found by Princess Merris, he would have returned to an area where Dudimose (Dedumose, Tutimaeus in Greek) was then pharaoh (1455 BCE); he would have returned to Avaris also for the remains of the patriarch, Joseph.
It was about this time that acts of nature, acts of God, went against Egypt.
[A]ccording to the archaeological evidence from Avaris, Egypt’s eastern delta suffered a terrifying calamity. At the end of Tell ed-Daba Stratum G, several large pits have been unearthed, in which were found scores of bodies tossed in as if by some act of emergency interment. … According to excavation director Manfred
Bietak, these people died from a deadly and virulent plague. … The mass graves of Avaris—located at the end of Proto-Israelite Stratum G were quickly followed by an abandonment of the Asiatic quarter of the city (on the main tell next to ed-Daba village)—all approximately at the time of Dudimose… The Semites simply gathered up their belongs and left.
Rohl, David. Exodus: Myth or History? Chapter Ten: Exodus –Plagues and Punishment, ps 153-156.
After a plague, these Semitic people left Avaris. According to the Bible, they left with Moses. Questioning the biblical claim, one could state that the Asiatic quarter of Avaris at that time would not have held 603,550 male Israelite slaves, age 20 and older (Numbers 1: 46) plus women and children under age 20. Second, the Bible does not state what happened next: the Hyksos descended into the eastern Delta.
COMMENTARY
- Moses is born approximately 1535 BCE.
- Moses moves from the Northern Kingdom to the Southern Kingdom when his princess mother is married to a Southern Kingdom pharaoh.
- At age 40, he leaves the Southern Kingdom and goes into exile – 1495 BCE
- Moses is in exile for 40 years but returns to his people in the Northern Kingdom – 1455 BCE
- The Israelites are in the Sinai Wilderness for 40 years, then Moses dies and Joshua takes over – 1415 BCE
So, Joshua and the fall of Jericho should not be dated at 1210 BCE or 1250 BCE, it should be dated closer to 1400 BCE than to 1230 BCE.
The historical exodus of Israelites happened right before the Hyksos entered the Egyptian delta. The Bible misses this historical accuracy. The incoming Hyksos likely diverted the biblical exodus south into Sinai, but after forty years, the Hyksos were still in power over Egypt and Palestine precluding an Israelite conquest of Canaan.
= = = =
There is your Moses.
There is Manetho’s Moses.
I remember when writing this section of my book, I thought Akhen-aten’s older brother was Osarseph.
There is David Rohl’s Moses.
= = = =
Was crown prince Thutmose the Overseer of Foreign Lands and Frontier Lands that you, Serene, speak of?
Yes—with an important qualification. The person you are asking about appears to be a different Thutmose from Crown Prince Thutmose, son of Amenhotep III.
The Thutmose proposed as a Moses candidate was an 18th-Dynasty official who served during the reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten and is associated with titles including:
- King’s Son of Kush
- Overseer of the Southern Foreign Lands
- Overseer of the borderlands/frontiers
- Overseer of masons
- Fan-bearer on the King’s right hand
A source describing him specifically gives him the title “King’s Son of Kush, Overseer of the Gold Lands of Amun, Overseer of masons, Overseer of the borderlands of His Majesty” during Akhenaten’s reign.
But was he a “crown prince”?
Not in the normal sense of Crown Prince Thutmose.
There was indeed a Crown Prince Thutmose, the eldest son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye. He was the intended heir before his younger brother, Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten, eventually became pharaoh.
That Crown Prince Thutmose is generally known from monuments as a high-ranking prince and priest, particularly associated with Memphis. He is not the same individual as the Thutmose who was Viceroy of Kush/overseer of the borderlands.
The Moses hypothesis you encountered appears to be combining or confusing these two Thutmoses, or alternatively arguing that the official Thutmose was himself a royal “King’s Son” because of his title.
And there’s a very important Egyptian terminology issue here:
“King’s Son of Kush” does not necessarily mean “the biological son of the Egyptian king.”
It became an official title associated with the viceroyal administration of Kush. Scholarship explicitly distinguishes this title from literal royal sonship; officials could bear the title without being members of the royal family.
So I would state it this way:
Thutmose the Viceroy/Overseer of Foreign Lands was a real Egyptian official of the Amarna period, but he should not automatically be identified with Crown Prince Thutmose, the son of Amenhotep III.
And this actually makes the Moses = Thutmose hypothesis more interesting but also more complicated. The candidate has genuinely striking offices—especially Overseer of Borderlands + Overseer of Masons + Viceroy/King’s Son of Kush—but we need to establish exactly which Thutmose held which titles and when before connecting him to Moses.
The next thing I’d want to check is the actual inscriptions of this Thutmose, because that will tell us whether the claim that he was “Overseer of Foreign Lands and Frontier Lands” is being represented accurately or whether the modern hypothesis is combining titles from different people.
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