Wars of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 9
Jesus Shaphat
A camp has been deserted and 5 leave behind their horses; then the horses are led away.
This is supposed to be history written by Josephus.
Now, look at 2 Kings
Elijah son of Shaphat comes to an abandoned camp. He discovers 5 horses and lead them away.
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Steefen
I think Joe Atwill is talking about the time when Jesus of Galilee captured the five horses of Vespasian. I will have to check.
When I googled 2 Kings and Shaphat, I came up with these verses (that do not include horses). As it relates to Jesus, there is some partaking of the son going on. (2 Kings 6: 31)
And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. 29So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son. 30And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman, that he rent his clothes; and he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh. 31Then he said, God do so and more also to me, if the head of Elisha the son of Shaphat shall stand on him this day. 32But Elisha sat in his house, and the elders sat with him; and the king sent a man from before him: but ere the messenger came to him, he said to the elders, See ye how this son of a murderer hath sent to take away mine head?
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2 Kings 7: 7, 12-13 does give us this about abandoned camp :
Wherefore they arose and fled in the twilight, and left their tents, and their horses, and their asses, even the camp as it was, and fled for their life.
And the king arose in the night, and said unto his servants, I will now shew you what the Syrians have done to us. They know that we be hungry; therefore are they gone out of the camp to hide themselves in the field, saying, When they come out of the city, we shall catch them alive, and get into the city.
13 And one of his servants answered and said, Let some take, I pray thee, five of the horses that remain, which are left in the city, (behold, they are as all the multitude of Israel that are left in it: behold, I say, they are even as all the multitude of the Israelites that are consumed:) and let us send and see.
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Question: Has Josephus used [pesher/typology] 2 Kings Chapters 6 and 7 in Wars of the Jews when he calls an historical Jesus of Galilee by the name Jesus Shaphat?
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pickup at 26 minutes 10 seconds of 3 hours 8 minutes 18 seconds
godspell said
** you do not have permission to see this link **
We would appreciate if you post to the question raised:
Josephus wrote about a Jesus Shaphat.
It is interesting that Josephus labeled one of the Jesuses in his work Jesus son of Shaphat when 2 Kings originally labeled Elisha, follower of Elijah, Elisha son of Shaphat.
A) Why would Josephus make that Jesus a son of Shaphat?
B) Why was Elisha called son of Shaphat?
Deflecting does not help us understand the works of Josephus better. Nonsense not tied to a conspiracy can be worse than nonsense tied to a conspiracy.
I just wanted to point out that this has all been discussed–and dismissed–on the main blog comments section. Bart was very patient. Honestly, I don’t think I’d be that patient. So rather than go into a lot of redundant back and forth, let me just say that I have never assumed everything Josephus or any ancient chronicler wrote is 100% accurate or objective. No modern historian has ever assumed that. I do, however, think that he aspired to accuracy and objectivity. As should we all.
I missed the original discussion on the main blog, but if I had been involved, I would have probably asked these questions: If Christianity was meant to dissuade Jews from seeking militant overthrow of Rome, why then was most of its proselytizing directed at gentiles who were not rebelling? Why would Rome want to make pagans (in some cases children of the ruling class) stop worshiping the gods of the polis, which was widely believed to be necessary in order to prevent plagues and famines and such? If they had invented this cult to make the Jews more passive and pliant, why didn’t they just get rid of it once it had clearly failed to serve its purpose (the vast majority of Jews never even considered becoming Christians) and was becoming a far bigger headache over the entire Empire than Judaism had ever been in Palestine? Why didn’t any Roman writer ever reveal the conspiracy Atwill posits as a means of discrediting the rising cult? It’s quite evident that even the highest-ranking Romans really did believe Jesus existed and had been a troublesome Jewish preacher who was crucified as a criminal.
But please note, I do not ask these questions here. Because I don’t see the point.
god misspelled
I just wanted to point out that this has been discussed–and dismissed–on the main blog comments section.
Steefen
That is a false statement. In fact, there is nothing to be dismissed about the statement:
2 Kings and Josephus use the term “son of Shaphat”.
god misspelled
I missed the original discussion on the main blog, but if I had been involved, I would have probably asked these questions:
If Christianity was meant to dissuade Jews from seeking militant overthrow of Rome, why then was most of its proselytizing directed at gentiles who were not rebelling?
Why would Rome want to make pagans (in some cases children of the ruling class) stop worshiping the gods of the polis, which was widely believed to be necessary in order to prevent plagues and famines and such?
If they had invented this cult to make the Jews more passive and pliant, why didn’t they just get rid of it once it had clearly failed to serve its purpose (the vast majority of Jews never even considered becoming Christians) and was becoming a far bigger headache over the entire Empire than Judaism had ever been in Palestine?
Why didn’t any Roman writer ever reveal the conspiracy Atwill posits as a means of discrediting the rising cult?
It’s quite evident that even the highest-ranking Romans really did believe Jesus existed and had been a troublesome Jewish preacher who was crucified as a criminal.
But please note, I do not ask these questions here. Because I don’t see the point.
Steefen
Exactly, there is no point from you because you feel the need to distract from the original post.
There is no conspiracy nonsense here. 1) Josephus and many pro-Romans saw the Romans as messiah/saviors trying to save the people of Jerusalem from anarchy and starvation. 2) Josephus did apply the Star Prophecy to Vespasian. 3) Jesus is not one historical person and because he is not one historical person he did not exist. 3) Ralph Ellis brought forth what was in Wars of the Jews: there were foreign supporters of the Jewish Revolt.
So, given these three points, you have mischaracterized what Joseph Atwill and Ralph Ellis have put forth.
Neither Bart nor you have dismissed those three points:
1) Once the rebels attacked a Roman legion, Rome needed to restore order. Once the rebels began to set up their own government and their government turned to Civil War anarchy, Rome needed to restore order. There were anti-Roman factions from Galilee in the north to Jerusalem in the south. Rome needed to sweep the whole country for bandits/innovators/rebels.
2) Josephus did apply the Star Prophecy to Vespasian and told him he would be emperor.
3) Queen Helena was a foreigner who adopted Judaism. She had a palace in Jerusalem. She had a son who helped her provide famine relief in the 40’s C.E. Her other son and other descendants supported the Jewish Revolt and were killed fighting against Rome.
Where is the nonsense in those three facts? There is none. Your contribution is erroneous, misleading, and misinformation.
I do not agree with other statements Joseph Atwill and Ralph Ellis have made in their books. I have communicated with them and they have heard me out. After listening to what they are saying in this video, I will be able to tell if they have evolved from their errors.
You sharing some years old post is irrelevant and unfair.
godspell said
** you do not have permission to see this link **You began this thread with a link to pseudo scholarship.
I see no problem in responding with links to genuine scholarship.
You need scholarship to mislead you into thinking two ore more historical people Plus myths equals a person who existed as a singular individual. Pathetic.
Scholarship has taught you that
Samaritan Redeemer slain by Pilate (30 CE)
+
The Jewish woe-saying Jesus (late 60s CE)
+
The Jewish Jesus of Gamala/Galilee with his band of mariners (late 60s CE)
equals
a (Jewish person who can see good in Samaritans), a historical person who existed (when? 30 CE? Ha ! ! !) as a singular individual.
You are in error. The criterion for a person to exist (Did Jesus Exist?) is for that person to exist as a singular individual at a singular lifespan.
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Back on topic:
Shaphat. … Shaphat (Hebrew: שָׁפָט; Latin and Douay–Rheims Saphat) of Abel-meholah: a man in the Bible, father of Elisha and son of Adlai. And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
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Scholarship that results in falsehoods needs more schooling.
Defend Bart Ehrman’s post you shared:
Bart
Which Jewish sects in early first century Palestine – say, around the year 30 CE — , exactly, were awaiting a warrior messiah? What’s the evidence for this?
Steefen
Who discredited the War Scroll around the year 30 CE?
How did the War Scroll fall into disfavor, 27 CE to 69 CE, with the sect/community from which it has been found?
The Qumran Community did not value it enough to preserve it?
Scholars say otherwise: the Qumran Community did value the War Scroll and preserved it for future finding.
Here is another statement from the post you shared for you to defend:
Bart
What evidence do we have that any Roman aristocrat, of any kind, whatsoever, living in Rome, or anywhere else, had even *heard* about Jesus and his followers)?
Steefen
General Vespasian, General Titus, and Herod Agrippa II were well aware of Jesus of Gamala/Galilee and his band of mariners. General Vespasian and General Titus battled him on the Sea of Galilee. The followers of Jesus of Gamala/Galilee were defeated. For the troubles Jesus and his boatmen gave Vespasian, Titus, and the Roman soldiers, Jesus was turned around into a pacifist as he should have been and was killed by Rome as he should have been except it appears he escaped to Jerusalem and was killed by the Idumeans.
The Victors write history. They wrote how Jesus should have been (non-rebel) and the justice that should have been (killed by Rome).
godspell said
Bart asked what evidence anyone has of this. You didn’t answer that question. You just made unsubstantiated statements taken from works of pseudo scholarship.I apologize for breaking in on your monologue. I’ll get off the thread now.
You skipped this:
Defend Bart Ehrman’s post you shared:
Bart
Which Jewish sects in early first century Palestine – say, around the year 30 CE — , exactly, were awaiting a warrior messiah? What’s the evidence for this?
Steefen
Who discredited the War Scroll around the year 30 CE?
How did the War Scroll fall into disfavor, 27 CE to 69 CE, with the sect/community from which it has been found?
The Qumran Community did not value it enough to preserve it?
Scholars say otherwise: the Qumran Community did value the War Scroll and preserved it for future finding.
picking up at 26 minutes 10 seconds of 3 hours 8 minutes 18 seconds
Joe Atwill: You have to look to the era of the 60s C.E. for the foundation of the Jesus story and the Saul-Josephus story. Joe hears Ralph when he says: Saul was persecuting the biblical Jesus as Josephus was persecuting the historical Jesus. Simply read the Wars of the Jews by Josephus.
pick up at 52:25
I haven’t even read much Josephus at all and have come across things that Josephus gets wrong compared to other Josephus works, lol. And of course there are rampant accusations of exaggerations as well.
Just scanning, Jesus was a very common name, and more than one can be mentioned in uprisings. Wasn’t even Barabbas a Jesus as well?
Completely agree with Godspell’s line of logic.
Again, I want a timeline. I keep hearing the “Josephus made up Jesus” theory trying to line up with “Constantine invented Christianity.” Are you putting these two things together as well or is one of them not quite right in your opinion?
I’m just asking questions! (As conspiracy mongers love to say.) 😉
FYI, Atwill’s not saying Constantine invented Christianity. He’s saying Rome invented Jesus, centuries before Constantine, to quell Jewish rebellion against Roman rule. Constantine, I suppose, wasn’t in on the joke?
Great Religions can begin in a lot of ways. But not this way. They are always the result of something unexpected–they are never planned by The Powers That Be, because The Powers That Be can never understand what it is people are looking for.
Some obscure person–Zoroaster, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Lao Tzu–hits a nerve. The Powers that Be end up dancing to his tune (and rewriting it). That’s what happened here. That’s what happens everywhere.
But see, some people delight in believing they have secret knowledge, that the common mob is ignorant of. They’re part of the common mob themselves, but by ‘knowing’ what others do not, they feel elevated above it. That’s where conspiracy theories come from, why they catch on, and proliferate endlessly. This need to feel in the know.
Atwill and his adherents are just another variant on the guy I heard in the Indian restaurant talking about how Shakespeare didn’t write Shakespeare as if it was a fact, when generations of dedicated scholars have established it’s no such thing. And they trot out one replacement Bard after another, and it always fails, but they are never deterred by failure, by being proven wrong, because the point was never to seek the truth. The point was to be IN THE KNOW.
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