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Mere food for thought regarding the quest for the historical Christ/the late Jane Roberts
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m.mk

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December 12, 2021 - 10:33 pm

Assertion: The exploits of the historical Christ were composed of the activities of several men, wound into myth and fantasy.

 

See

** you do not have permission to see this link **

 

Related assertion: In certain terms Christ was an INVENTION, but then ALL of the “Gods” as they have been known WERE inventions.

 

See:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

 

Some further Jane Roberts assertions in this vein:

 

“There were, indeed, several ‘Christs,’ several people whose preaching and exploits merged to form the composite figure historically known as Christ. There are all kinds of contradictions in the Bible, and in Christ’s own attitudes as depicted, because there were more Christs than one.
 
“The Sermon on the Mount is probably the closest interpretation of the best Christianity had to offer–but the tenets of that Christ, who gave the Sermon on the Mount, did not suit some of the people involved who looked for an earthly king. ‘Blessed are the meek’ did not fit them or their idea of political power. The Christ who gave the Sermon on the Mount also said that the kingdom of heaven was within–and that dictum did not fit in either with those who wanted a politically effective Sire.”
 
(9:54.) “Another Christ was the one who cursed the fig tree.”
 
From Jane Roberts’ The God of Jane
 
“There is nothing that happened in those times that is not happening now in your own: You have numberless gurus, people who seemingly perform miracles (and some do). So there were in those days some rather disconnected events that served as the focus point for great psychic activity: People wanted to believe, and their belief changed the course of history. It doesn’t matter that the events never happened — the belief happened. And the belief was man’s response to intuitional knowledge, to inner knowing, and to spiritual comprehension.”
 
–Jane Roberts/Seth, The Magical Approach, Session Eleven, September 15, 1980
 
“The mass psyche was seeking for a change, an impetus, a flowering, a new organization. The idea of a redeemer was hardly new, but ancient in many traditions. As I stated before, that part of the world was filled with would-be messiahs, self-proclaimed prophets, and so forth, and in those terms it was only a matter of time before man’s great spiritual and psychic desires illuminated and filled up that psychological landscape, filling the prepared psychological patterns with a new urgency and intent. There were many throw-away messiahs [spoken with with gentle amusement] — men whose circumstances, characteristics, and abilities were almost [spoken musically] the ones needed — who almost [spoken musically] filled the psychic bill, but who were unfitted for other reasons: They were of the wrong race, or their timing was off. Their intersection with space and time did not mesh with the requirements.”
 
–Jane Roberts/Seth, The Magical Approach, Session Eleven, September 15, 1980
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JAS

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December 13, 2021 - 8:29 am

I believe that this is quite literally old news here. I think Dr. Ehrman has addressed mythicism pretty well.

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Robert
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December 13, 2021 - 9:22 am
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JAS

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December 13, 2021 - 7:19 pm

Robert said
It’s a pretty safe bet, however, that Bart puts no credence whatsoever into ** you do not have permission to see this link **

  

And wouldn’t we be disappointed if he did support such specious stuff.

I might as well note that before her death 2 years ago, my cat was also suspicious. (Exactly what it was about which she was suspicious must remain a matter of conjecture. Cats are, after all, pretty inscrutable. Maybe we could try to reach her via a seance. As silly as that should sound, I had a friend who, many years ago, had a party where a self-proclaimed medium, one of his students, read the past lives of his cats. I was not present, but it sounded very funny from his descriptions. I should perhaps note that he was a person with a rather impish sense of humor.)

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Stephen
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December 14, 2021 - 9:04 am

There is a problem with the idea of reincarnation.  And that is there are more people alive at one time now than at any point in human history.  The population has been increasing exponentially for centuries. The only conclusion possible is that for the vast majority of the human race this must be their first incarnation.  The only way you could have a situation where most people had multiple lifetimes is if the population were decreasing.   I’ve never heard true believers address this issue.   

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JAS

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December 14, 2021 - 9:28 am

Stephen said
There is a problem with the idea of reincarnation.  And that is there are more people alive at one time now than at any point in human history.  The population has been increasing exponentially for centuries. The only conclusion possible is that for the vast majority of the human race this must be their first incarnation.  The only way you could have a situation where most people had multiple lifetimes is if the population were decreasing.   I’ve never heard true believers address this issue.   

  

I have, and the usual two responses are that they are indeed first incarnations, which apparently means that they are the least mature souls (something that might explain some of our current circumstances). The other response I have heard is that the reincarnation of a soul is not necessarily one to one, a concept that also conveniently explains how many people can claim to have had the same past experiences. When one is arguing something that cannot be proven in any meaningful way, one can, of course, say pretty much whatever one wants.

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Chris_Hansen

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December 14, 2021 - 12:36 pm

Stephen said
There is a problem with the idea of reincarnation.  And that is there are more people alive at one time now than at any point in human history.  The population has been increasing exponentially for centuries. The only conclusion possible is that for the vast majority of the human race this must be their first incarnation.  The only way you could have a situation where most people had multiple lifetimes is if the population were decreasing.   I’ve never heard true believers address this issue.   

  

Not to mention, in what way is reincarnation even meaningful?

I don’t retain my memories, nor can I discern if I have retained the same personality. Nor can I claim I have the same body, mind, or experiences. Therefore, the only thing that could possibly be “reincarnated” is my rather empty soul which adds little to nothing to who I am, otherwise, there would be more of me reincarnated. Or my soul and body are not the same artifacts, and therefore there is a barrier. At which point, I’m not sure how it meaningfully belongs or is a part of me to begin with.

So, I’m not reincarnated in identity, personality, character, body, experience, mind, etc… so at that point it just seems like reincarnation is rather meaningless.

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JAS

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December 14, 2021 - 3:49 pm

Chris_Hansen said
 

Not to mention, in what way is reincarnation even meaningful?

I don’t retain my memories, nor can I discern if I have retained the same personality. Nor can I claim I have the same body, mind, or experiences. Therefore, the only thing that could possibly be “reincarnated” is my rather empty soul which adds little to nothing to who I am, otherwise, there would be more of me reincarnated. Or my soul and body are not the same artifacts, and therefore there is a barrier. At which point, I’m not sure how it meaningfully belongs or is a part of me to begin with.

So, I’m not reincarnated in identity, personality, character, body, experience, mind, etc… so at that point it just seems like reincarnation is rather meaningless.  

I am far from the ideal person to be explaining what those who believe in reincarnation, but from what I understand, they would argue that it does convey at least parts of personality and character, and memory, which includes experience. (The Christian concept of a resurrection of the body in a final time is the closest to reincarnation in the body.) Obviously, this is a serious problem given our modern concepts of how the brain works, and the fact that the brain, being organic, does not in any way survive death and decay. Those who believe in reincarnation, of course, are not bothered by such concerns. There are those who claim that certain states, such as hypnosis or trance, can connect more directly with these prior lives. The fact that no well-documented examples support the contention that people are doing more than using their imaginations (and drawing on superficial information absorbed from a variety of sources) also seems not to be of concern, although they will claim that there are examples where the person knew something that was verified and which they could not know in any other way. This kind of thinking is akin to people who see some object in the sky that they do not recognize, confidently rule out natural explanations (including experimental craft about which they presumably know nothing) and conclude that it must be an alien spacecraft. That is, it is an explanation that strives to ensure agreement even from those who do not believe by eliminating all plausible causes and leaving only the cause they wish to be adopted.

PS – There are traces of the idea that a soul can carry memory and personality in the many stories about ghosts, at least those that supposedly interact with observers. Why they would appear in a physical form that resembles their former body, and in clothing of the period when they lived, perhaps raises more questions that are answered.

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ravitchn

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December 17, 2021 - 10:49 am

I think the view of Albert Schweitzer makes all other authors about Jesus, including Bart Ehrman, superfluous.  Schweitzer for me demonstrates that:

No one understood the Jesus we think we know about.  His teachings, his attitudes, his concerns were not those of any contemporary group, not the Essenes, not the Ebionites, not the Hellenistic Christians, not the Pharisees, not anyone.  Schweitzer’s conclusion, basically that everyone constructs a Jesus for himself, led him finally to where we all should go:  he went to help the Africans who were in the grip of disease, he did not preach Christianity, he did what he thought was practical Christianity and thereby did good.  Theology does not do good.  It confuses, it divides, it is based on presumption and on assumption.

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Stephen
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December 17, 2021 - 11:07 am

His teachings, his attitudes, his concerns were not those of any contemporary group, not the Essenes, not the Ebionites, not the Hellenistic Christians, not the Pharisees, not anyone. 

On the contrary there was a great deal of overlap between Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries.  What is remarkable is how non-unique Jesus probably was.   Nothing in his teachings is original.  Jesus was most likely a disciple of John who went out on his own after John’s death.  We remember Jesus because of what happened after he died not before.

…he went to help the Africans who were in the grip of disease…

Jesus went to Africa?  Was that before or after he went to India?  Did he walk or go by flying saucer?

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Robert
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December 17, 2021 - 11:34 am
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Stephen
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December 17, 2021 - 7:59 pm

Whoops wrong “he”.  

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