Does anyone know how common “miracles” were in Jesus’ day? I’m trying to ascertain if Jesus’ miracles were something rare or new, or if miracles were more common in those days. For me, if miracles (in whatever way you understand them) were more common, it would make Jesus’ use of them more understandable and less of a big deal as we see them today. So, if Jesus’ practice of miracles was something other religious practitioners did, or other “magicians” did, ,or other sears or healers did, they would be more understandable and less subject to controversy or dispute.
Thanks for any help.
Rick Roeder
Real miracles have always been a rare phenomenon. That miracles flowed from Christ during the time period in which He lived was extraordinary and solid evidence that He was GOD. To try to discover Who He was and simultaneously reject the miracles He performed, or was said to have performed, thwarts our efforts. He used miracles to prove beyond any doubt that He was GOD.
It is not as if we have to believe in miracles per se at first. It is more like being open-minded about carefully examining the New Testament to see what it says. The words contained within it leapt off the pages as I found that GOD was becoming involved in my life. It had been a tough job whenever I tried reading it before then. It takes determination to persist with an honest investigation into what it says. John is a pretty cool book to read if someone is just starting out.
Real Miracle? If one uses a more secular(contemporary) perspective consider the following:
Many look at miracles as something that has occurred that is impossible. Yet if it is impossible it cannot possibly have occurred. Just because a society’s knowledge of the perceived miracle is inadequate to understand that phenomenon does not mean that it is impossible. Its simply be a real world phenomenon that has not been understood. Today that would be Black-Holes.
Today’s Science is incredibly more knowledgeable than that of 2000 yrs ago and what would be thought a miracle back then in many cases is just an everyday event for us today. Meteors blasting into our atmosphere, eclipses of the Sun or Moon were considered to be miracles 2000 yrs ago not to mention the effects of bacteria, viruses. But none of these would be considered miracles today.
I always come from a secular outlook. If my words are too strong and/or improper please email me.
Since we just recently learned that the universe is expanding and at an increasing rate, dark energy and dark matter were discovered and make up 90% of the known universe. Yet, we are clueless as to their contents and their structure. All scientists can tell us is that they are composed of something unlike anything else in the universe, not chemicals or molecules or atoms.
Raising the dead is miraculous. Healing a withered hand with a touch is always a miracle. Healing the sick, seeing the future, making wine from water, things of that nature, they’re miracles. And He did miracles all the time. He was a miracle, born of a virgin. Can’t happen. It happened.
In the standard Lambda-CDM model of cosmology, the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter and energy, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% of an unknown form of energy known as dark energy. Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter that is thought to account for approximately 80% of the matter in the universe, and about a quarter of its total energy density. The majority of dark matter is thought to be non-baryonicin nature, possibly being composed of some as-yet undiscovered subatomic particles.
And man knows God had no part in the creation of all things.
All anyone can talk about is what they have experienced in this life we all participate in.
From your words you know: that miracles are, that God is. These are your assertions / assumptions.
Have you personally seen a literally dead person arise(not near death but actually literally dead) and literally live again or any of the other miracles in your 2nd paragraph? Any assertions of literal miracles 2000 or more yrs ago are at best Hearsay and/or Blind belief. As to why this is held by many, well that seems to be as varied as there are human societies.
Your last sentence is a generalization about humanity(“man”). Clearly you do not agree with that generalization. If one takes your last sentence literally then one can infer you are not part of humanity(“man”) since it is humans(“man”) who hold that perspective. I don’t believe this is literally true, I point this out to demonstrate how problematic unexamined words can be.
One may dearly want to believe that miracles occurred 2000 or more yrs ago but don’t bet your money on it (other peoples money sure why not – if one gets a commission and it literally doesn’t cost one anything). And yet they surely don’t take place in the world today. If they did one could generate these effects and easily replace Penn and Teller in Vegas and live on top of what is sadly valued in today’s world.
It was very nice to see that you are familiar with the latest understandings of Physics. Dark Energy, Dark Matter and other areas are the mysterious boundaries of our world’s present level of understanding of our universe’s cosmology. These boundaries are where Research Scientists are now focused. It’s their efforts that hopefully will push these boundaries to new levels just as Newton, Galileo, Kepler and so many others have done for us.
In ancient times religions usually held the scientific knowledge of their day (and it was usually kept secret). The science of 2000 BC is at best incredibly crude when compared to the level of knowledge of science in our present day. Unexplained phenomenon are just that. They appear mysterious, intriguing. Indeed maybe even dangerous. But hardly miraculous.
Society’s new High Priests appear to be today’s Research Scientists. Past generations did the best that was possible in their time and place and are to be appreciated for what has been ever so slowly (not to mention painfully) pasted on to those that followed them.
Replacing words like God, god, miracle with life, nature, mystery Brings tremendous clarity to whatever is being focused on.
PS. Did not check the accuracy of details in your paragraph on present day physics. Assumed you are knowledgeable in that area.
Have you personally seen a literally dead person arise(not near death but actually literally dead) and literally live again or any of the other miracles in your 2nd paragraph? Any assertions of literal miracles 2000 or more yrs ago are at best Hearsay and/or Blind belief.
I was more than dead and He gives me new life daily. There’s no proof that the miracles that took place 2,000 years ago were merely hearsay or based upon blind belief. Why would they lie about such things?
ever read about a frog
Who dreamed of bein’ a king
And then became one
Well except for the names
And a few other changes
If you talk about me
The story is the same one
and is true for all us frogs who wanted to become real people with integrity
“One may dearly want to believe that miracles occurred 2000 or more yrs ago but don’t bet your money on it (other peoples money sure why not – if one gets a commission and it literally doesn’t cost one anything). And yet they surely don’t take place in the world today. If they did one could generate these effects and easily replace Penn and Teller in Vegas and live on top of what is sadly valued in today’s world.”
Busted cold. Dag, man. What gave it away? I get millions in commissions for commenting here. Every soul saved brings in 36% returns on my investments, too.
I bet my life on Him, everything I am, hope to be, my future, my past, my loved ones, my possessions and friends and time, my food, my body, clothes, what I watch and read and listen to, the whole shootin match, baby. I am in deep.
What He “did” for Bart He’ll do for you.
There are hucksters out there like Benny Hinn and Paula White who continue to reap major bucks for putting on a show of unparalleled humor–to die for.
My problem with miracles in any religion that claims that God created the physical laws of the universe and that God can not change nor violate his created laws has a problem with claiming miracles that violate his immutable laws. Either God is changeable and violates his laws or he does not perform miracles.
I don’t think His early believers were knowingly lying. They just believed that miracles happened…a lot. Every miracle claimed today that CAN be investigated has been debunked. All we are left with are miracle claims that are hearsay or univestigatable, usually from 3rd world countries. I’d be glad to witness a miracle but I would need some pretty strong evidence that I am not misinterpreting what I experienced as I know that self deception and misinterpretation is usually the explanation.
And some people do lie for the faith. Even you mentioned Benny Hinn! I don’t think most believers are lying. Just a bit too willing to believe.
I’m assuming that God is omnipotent and therefore not bound by our current understanding of natural laws. My question is this:
Were miracles, however you construe or define them, not uncommon in Jesus’s day? Were there healers, magicians, prophets, or religious figures who also did miracles (again, however you construe them)?
If so, then for me, Jesus’s miracles (whether true or not) were more acceptable and believable in those days. Therefore, I am not bothered by whether the miracles were really miracles or not and I don’t believe they support or refute the divinity of Jesus.
Miracle claims were very common and came from multiple societies in ancient days. People easily believed them if they thought it came from a trusted source. I don’t think we have any accounts of folks investigating the claims. They just didn’t think in skeptical terms like we do today. Their thought processes were very different from ours. Even Herodotus, who is considered one of the best historians from antiquity and who often interviewed and named eyewitnesses and even gave competing views of a story, stated without the least bit of skepticism of outrageous miracles. The ancients completely believed they occurred and often. They believed that if they considered someone trustworthy then they couldn’t and wouldn’t lie.
People who experienced miracles at the hands of Jesus were blown away. Absolutely pulverized with incredulity. Absolutely ecstatic. Freaked out. In awe. Couldn’t believe their eyes.
There was but one Man Who performed miracles constantly, Who raised the dead, Who was raised Himself from the grave, Who healed all manner of illness, Who merely spoke and the winds and the waves obeyed Him. And they make no bones about it. They were proud of His miracles, proud of Him. They loved the guy! These guys were your typical Jewish persons. They had nothing to gain by telling what they saw and heard. They had everything to lose by perpetuating stories that were hostile, repugnant to their peers. Did a single one of them receive lots of denari, (besides Judas?) or fame, or power for being involved with this Guy? Think! Think! Think! What motives did the first disciples, apostles, followers have even to acknowledge they knew the Guy? Pete was scared out of his gourd. What were the scribes hoping to gain if the writers found they changed the wording from the originals, or the second hand or third hand copies or to the often repeated oral accounts? I can tell you word for word what my coach from decades ago told his team and so can my fellow teammates, with no sweat, with no difficulty and we weren’t with him 24/7 for 3 years.
BTW, observe how many different theories you all hold with all the information available today. Remember what Bart said, too. He and Metzger could have pounded out with perhaps a dozen exceptions out of thousands of possibilities, what the original N.T. said.
Enjoyed the above comments.
Unless, I am mistaken, however, one assumption runs throughout the threads: The accounts of miracles in the NT are accurately recorded. If they are, then our discussion should center on their interpretation in the context of first century A.D as above. If not (say they were embellished by the evangelists), then from my perspective any consideration of Jesus’ miracles by default is relegated to the themes of metaphor (i.e. marvelous stories with viable life lessons, but not factual).
Thoughts?
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Does anyone know how common “miracles” were in Jesus’ day? I’m trying to ascertain if Jesus’ miracles were something rare or new, or if miracles were more common in those days. For me, if miracles (in whatever way you understand them) were more common, it would make Jesus’ use of them more understandable and less of a big deal as we see them today. So, if Jesus’ practice of miracles was something other religious practitioners did, or other “magicians” did, ,or other sears or healers did, they would be more understandable and less subject to controversy or dispute.Thanks for any help.
Rick Roeder
Miracles, and miracle workers seemed to be a common occurrence. Now did they physically and historically occur? Impossible to tell and impossible to say. Historians cannot say that a miracle happened because they try to find what is the most probable answer to the evidence we have, and miracles are (by definition) the least probable answer, as they require supernatural intervention that cannot possibly be examined or explained by the sciences and Historical methods we have now.
To give a few examples though:
The Acts of the Apostles lists this particular man named Simon the Magus, who was a sorcerer of some kind, and was bewitching the Samaritan peoples. By the writer of Luke-Acts own account, Simon performed various magics and sorcery exercises (miracles as they could be classified) and amazed the people.
“Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10 and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.” 11 They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery.” 1
Now at some point Phillip then comes to the area, and performs his own miracles.
Remember that Luke-Acts were likely compiled by the same author and formulated in their original form around 80-90 CE or so (with Acts in particular seeing numerous revisions afterward).
Justin the Martyr, Origen, and Celsus (through Origen) give accounts of Simon (or someone possibly very similar) who was claiming to be God, a spectre of God, or some kind of God-like Messiah.
So if these are the same Simon (it can’t be confirmed really but for the sake of argument) then he bears striking resemblance to Jesus himself.
Another example is Honi ha-M’agel,2 who lived around the first century BCE, during a time when there were many people claiming to be miracle workers. He was basically noted for his relationship with God (according to Talmudic sources) and that in one instance, while there was no rain in Israel, he drew a circle and demanded rain from God, lest he never move from the circle. It begins to rain, but Honi wants more rain, and demands it of God. So it begins to blow a vast stormy rain. He then says he wants it calm, and so it becomes calm.
Citations:
1. Acts 8:9-11
2. Talmud, Taanit 19a
Others:
Justin the Martyr – “Apologies”
Celsus – Quoted by Origen
Origen – “Contra Celsum”
BDEhrman
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