The first book to give the full account of the lost gospel of Jesus’ original followers, revealing him to be a Jewish Socrates who was mythologized into the New Testament Christ.
“A masterful analysis of the entire Q tradition…. Its scope is large and its argument compelling.” — Bible Review
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In The Lost Gospel, Burton Mack:
puts forth the first popular translation of Q as scholarly consensus has reconstructed it;
shows that Jesus’ life story as presented in the New Testament gospels was fictionalized for theological purposes;
reveals Jesus to be a countercultural teacher and leader–subsequently mythologized into the Christ of the New Testament;
depicts Jesus’ followers not as Christians, but as disciples of a wise, anti-establishment teacher; they did not believe him to be the son of God, believe that he rose from the dead, or gather to worship in his name;
concludes that Christianity is a mythologized religion (like Buddhism and other religions) rooted in a historical figure and teachings that in reality are quite remote from conventional beliefs.
“Q challenges the habituated assumptions and patterns of privilege granted the narrative gospels of the New Testament. With Burton Mack’s landmark scholarship as a guide, the entire landscape of early Christian history and literature will now have to be revised.” (Ron Cameron, author of The Other Gospels)
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Robert M. Price
What convinces you there was a Jesus?
Dennis R. MacDonald
Paul and the Q document convinces me there was a Jesus.
The Q document shows a Jesus who challenged the Torah enforcers.
I put the woman caught in adultery in Q.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I heard that scholars have concluded the woman caught in adultery is a later addition.
20:45 Regarding MacDonald placing the Woman Caught in Adultery in Q …
quoting Bart Ehrman (2/1/2017):
Even though it is technically true that the passage “probably” does not belong in the New Testament, the reality is that it is not a debated point among textual scholars and translators. The passage was not part of the Gospel of John originally. Or any other Gospel.
Despite the brilliance of the story, its captivating quality, and its inherent intrigue, there is one other enormous problem that it poses. As it turns out, it was not originally in the Gospel of John. That is not to say that it was originally somewhere else in the Gospels. In fact, it originally was not part of the Gospels at all. It was added by later scribes.
How do we know this? In fact, scholars who work on the manuscript tradition have no doubts about this particular case: the story is not found in our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John, its writing style is very different from what we find in the rest of John (including the stories immediately before and after), and it includes a large number of words and phrases that are otherwise alien to the Gospel. The conclusion is unavoidable: this passage was not originally part of the Gospel.
Dennis R. MacDonald (continued)
Social Identity Theory is a new hermeneutic
All social groups have self-stereotyping where they identify their values and leader
There are also stereotypes of out-groups.
The Q document has social markings, also. In Q, the leader, Jesus, is not a martyr.
He is a prophet giving an alternative interpretation of Law: humanizing it.
Someone like that gets in trouble.
The Q document is not Christian at all. It is Jewish.
As Jesus gave an alternative interpretation of Law, Paul also gives an alternative interpretation of Law.
Robert M. Price
Q document is Ancient Cynicism.
When I read Mack’s book, The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q, I think he goes to far because it may have been a cynicism movement but not the personality of Jesus shining through.
The cynic Jesus dissolves under scrutiny. We can’t prove Jesus said these things. Yes, in the gospels, we see, “Jesus said …” and “Jesus said …” but we do not know what Jesus said.
With wisdom literature, it is not the Wise man but the Wise sayings themselves that are accepted with conviction. It does not require faith in the person of the Wise man who said it or who said these things. So, I disagree with you that in terms of Social Identity, Jesus is the leader saying these things.
Dennis MacDonald
What do you do with Paul and Paul saying Jesus is the crucified one?
Robert Price
Paul is dealing with a Jesus of revelation. Romans and 1 Peter say the Romans do not punish the righteous. [Not given 1 Peter, but definitely given Romans,] how can Paul say this IF Jesus was framed and killed by the Romans? Well, go back and explore Jesus as an angel and what Carrier says about Jesus crucified in the heavens.
Robert said
Steefen said
I heard that scholars have concluded the woman caught in adultery is a later addition.
20:45 Regarding MacDonald placing the Woman Caught in Adultery in Q …
Which is a pretty good indication of how outside the mainstream MacDonald’s source theory is. Yet his theory has some benefits in that it decidedly does not parsimoniously delimit sources but rather recognizes the limits of source-critical methodology.
His school of thought is growing though. I personally do not think his parallels to the Odyssey and Iliad are that convincing, but I do think connections to the Imperial Cult are (but I outright dismiss anyone who thinks the Flavians invented Jesus, or any Atwill or Corrotta nonsense theory from the depths of amateurish incompetency). I think there are some really good parallels between Roman Emperors, Romulus, and Jesus, along with consistent language use, that makes it hard to deny they were partially mimetic in their tradition.
Dennis R MacDonald
Jesus of the 4th Gospel and Dionysus
Jesus is a donor deity, like Dionysus giving wine.
“I am the true grapevine.”
The Gospel of John is developed in three stages
Dionysus Gospel
Anti-Jewish Gospel
Beloved Disciple Gospel
Jesus the party animal who distributes water-into-wine-joy.
Sometimes their is cultural accomodation/syncretism with Dionysus, sometimes there is antagonism.
The gospel of John puts some of Jesus’s activities before John the Baptist is arrested. The Synoptics do not.
The Johannine Epistles came before the Gospel of John
p/u at 30 of 32:07
Dr. Robert Price (and I googled to see about what he was talking)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Line 794 of the play The Bacchae by Euripides finds the god Dionysus saying to Pentheus, “I would sacrifice to him rather than kick against the goad in your rage, a mortal fighter against a god.” (John Davie , trans.)
When Paul is recounting his conversion experience in Acts 26:14 he says, “We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'”
Dr. Robert Price (and I googled to see about what he was talking)
2 Maccabees, Chapter 3
23 But Heliodorus carried on with what had been decided. 24 When he and his spearmen approached the treasury, however, the ruler of all spirits and all authority made an awesome display, so that all those daring to come with Heliodorus fainted, terrified and awestruck by God’s power. 25 A horse appeared to them with a fearsome rider and decked out with a beautiful saddle. While running furiously, the horse attacked Heliodorus with its front hooves. The rider appeared to be clothed in full body armor made of gold. 26 Two young men also appeared before him—unmatched in bodily strength, of superb beauty, and with magnificent robes. They stood on either side of Heliodorus and beat him continuously with many blows. 27 When he suddenly fell to the ground unconscious, his men grasped him and placed him on a stretcher. 28 This was the same man who had just entered the treasury with a large group of men and a full bodyguard. Now they carried him away helpless, despite his weapons, and they publicly acknowledged God’s power. 29 While he was being cut down and left speechless through the divine power and deprived of all hope of recovery, 30 the people were praising the Lord for acting miraculously on behalf of his holy place. And the temple, which had been weighed down with fear and disturbance a short time earlier, was now filled with delight and joy because the almighty Lord had publicly appeared.
31 Some of Heliodorus’ companions rushed to ask Onias to pray to the Most High to give life to the one who was about to draw his last breath. 32 The high priest, fearful that perhaps the king might think that the Jews had done something evil to Heliodorus, offered a sacrifice for the man’s recovery.
33 While the high priest was making the sacrifice for reconciliation, the same two[** you do not have permission to see this link **] young men, dressed in the same clothing, appeared again to Heliodorus. They stood by him and said, “You owe Onias the high priest your gratitude. Because of him the Lord has graciously given life to you. 34 But you who suffered a beating from heaven must proclaim the great power of God to all.” Once they said these things, they disappeared.
35 Heliodorus offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made many solemn promises to the savior for sparing his life. After thanking Onias, he took his military force back to the king. 36 He testified to everyone about the works of the great God that he had seen with his own eyes. 37 When the king asked Heliodorus who would be the right sort of person to send again to Jerusalem, he said: 38 “If you have an enemy or someone plotting against your government, send him, and he will come back badly beaten if he should come back at all, because some divine power truly surrounds the temple.[** you do not have permission to see this link **] 39 The one who lives in heaven watches over that place and will strike and destroy anyone coming with evil intent.” 40 So this is how matters turned out concerning Heliodorus and the guarding of the treasury.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert