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So Paul actually met with a couple of Jesus' disciples (Peter and Jesus' brother James) only a few years after the crucifixion/resurrection?
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Tomos

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September 22, 2023 - 7:10 am

“but I love learning from those who’ve studied the texts in their original languages and have more insight than I do. Anyway – thanks, everyone!” -Totally agree bread is bread as I am in no way a scholar and don’t know Koine greek or Hebrew (although hope to learn in the future!) should probably focus on passing high school exams so I can go to university first rather than focus too far ahead in the future 😂

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Tomos

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September 22, 2023 - 6:34 pm

Would be interesting (although kind of going off topic) how (if any of you have) have learnt greek and how much that helped your understanding of interpreting and reading the NT in terms of what the original authors actually wanted to say as I tried John Dobson’s learn new testament greek (I think that’s what it’s called) but I struggled a bit to remember all the vocab.

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Robert
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September 22, 2023 - 7:37 pm
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Porphyry

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September 23, 2023 - 9:25 am

My knowledge of Greek is, shall I say, very limited.

But I can say that even a really rudimentary knowledge of the fundamentals (the alphabet, basic grammatical categories and constructions), without even memorizing vocabulary or morphology, will give you some truly useful ability to access the text in Greek, insofar as, if you want to see what is going on in a verse, you can look at the Greek and–slowly, tediously, with dictionary and grammar in hand–pick it apart. That’s not generally how you’d want to read a text, but it can still be useful. So, for example, if you want to be able to check to see if Mark is using the same word in two different verses, or whether the translation you happen to be using is suggesting a link that isn’t actually in the text, you have the tools to check.

That is especially true today, when you are talking about a text as heavily studied as the NT: You can get a thorough linguistic analysis of every verse of the NT for free online, which will give you the dictionary form of each word, and parse the declined/conjugated form as it appears in the text–basically it does all the stuff for you that requires memorization.

I’m not saying such a limited knowledge is what you should aim for–certainly you will need a far far stronger command of the language if you wish to go into Scripture scholarship. But it is perhaps an encouragement: as far as access the to text of the NT, even a really basic knowledge of the language will still be a huge step up from being stuck entirely depending on translations.

I guess my point is not to be discouraged; Greek is a difficult language that takes years of hard work to master, but you don’t need to memorize every verb form and be able to read Demosthenes without a dictionary in order to start deriving real benefit from studying it.

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Robert
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September 23, 2023 - 11:13 am
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sberry

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October 23, 2023 - 2:58 pm

Professor Ehrman has recognized that almost immediately after the crucifixion there were numerous sincere believers in resurrection. So is it his position that they had dreams or hallucinated?

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Porphyry

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October 23, 2023 - 3:40 pm

As I recall, he doesn’t think we have enough data to know what led them to that belief.

I also don’t remember him saying quite how soon after the crucifixion the belief developed. I mean, obviously it had arisen within a few decades, but whether it was 3 days later, a month later, 2 years later, I don’t think Bart thinks we know.

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sberry

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October 23, 2023 - 9:20 pm

Thanks. We do not “know” but has he speculated as the most likely situation?

Either (1) it really happened, or (2) they lied, or (3) they were confused by (A) dreams or (B) hallucinations. That’s it, right? Doesn’t he have a hunch?

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Robert
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October 23, 2023 - 10:00 pm
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Stephen
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October 24, 2023 - 12:43 pm

One interesting question about the nature of the resurrection “experience” is just how comfortable Jesus and his followers were with visionary experiences before the resurrection. Paul, clearly, was comfortable with visionary, ecstatic experiences. He had a vision of the risen Christ and subsequently equates his own experience with that of the original followers of Jesus. Was there a strong mystical component to all strains of Jewish apocalypticism? Did Jesus himself cultivate such experiences? That would make any visions of Jesus subsequent to his death less unexpected.

As for dreams, the ancients had no concept of the subconscious or the personal unconscious. The images and events in dreams occupied a place outside the mind of the dreamer. What would be more natural, after the trauma of the crucifixion, for one or more of Jesus’ disciples to have vivid dreams about him?

Whether visions or dreams, or both, it wouldn’t have had to be everybody. Just one or two at first to get the ball rolling by a kind of psychological infection. Scholars have long pointed out the list of appearances Paul gives at the beginning of 1 Cor 15 among other things serves to validate the leadership. All the right people have the right experiences. One can imagine that it wasn’t quite so neat as that.

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sberry

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October 24, 2023 - 2:20 pm

“All the right people have the right experiences.” Nice points about the Infection, kind of like girls in that New England town seeing witches just like the other girls said they did.

So the likely truth lies between “they were plain lying” and some very wishful thinking (“I was starving and walking in the desert and saw a great light, it was obviously Jesus, like what Peter and James said…”)

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Porphyry

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October 24, 2023 - 5:33 pm

Grieving people frequently have waking hallucinations of their departed loved ones. ** you do not have permission to see this link **; these are called “post-bereavement hallucinatory experiences”. The frequency of such experiences is, I understand, related to the trauma and guilt associated with the loss of the loved one; the experiences are often “healing and transformative”.

Now look: Jesus had an inner circle of 12, plus who knows how many groupies. Seeing him (or just knowing of his being) brutally executed would certainly have been traumatic. It also seems very likely to me that they would have felt significant responsibility.

So it seems to me extremely likely–just given what we know about ordinary, natural phenomenon of people thinking they have seen departed loved ones–that several of them would have had such a vivid, waking experience of him. In fact, given what we know, it would be shocking if some of them didn’t have some such experiences of him after the crucifixion.

Now if you sprinkle in just a touch of these people being very religious, then it wouldn’t take much for them to take these experiences as veridicial.

Paul is trickier–since he wasn’t an intimate of Jesus. But that’s where I’m especially inclined to follow the path Stephen suggest above: Was Paul already engaged in a form of Jewish mysticism that cultivated visionary experiences? If he was, that would go a long way to explaining how he had a vision of Jesus that converted him.

Anyway, if you ask which individuals can we reasonably suspect probably had such an experience of Jesus, based on what survives in the NT: I think you end up with Mary Magdalene, James, Peter, and Paul (there could well of course have been more). Set Paul aside, because he was likely a mystic of some sort. That leaves three: Mary, Peter, James, which is fewer than we would have expected.

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Jarek

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October 25, 2023 - 12:58 am

Paul hasn’t met anyone. The descriptions of meetings from the Letter to the Galatians are fictitious and invented accounts intended to make Paul and the Disciples mutually credible, thus justifying the choice of the gospel and letters as part of the canon of holy books.
The first person who needed it was a man named Marcion.
Reading is a noble activity, but minimalism works best in analysis. Especially when the texts are sacred and their purpose is historical politics and not a true account of the past.

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