Bart Ehrman Blog Readers Forum

A A A
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Min search length: 3 characters / Max search length: 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_TopicIcon
The "death" of Jesus
Avatar
Blackwell

181 Posts
(Offline)
21
December 23, 2016 - 12:41 am

Stephen said
The details of the easter stories are probably completely legendary.     

This statement is also speculative.

Some details of the easter stories may be incorrect, but what evidence is there that they are completely legendary?

Avatar
mreichert

37 Posts
(Offline)
22
December 23, 2016 - 3:53 pm

I should be more explicit about why some passages I rely on as truthful (more or less, I rarely take anything literally) and what I think of as exaggeration or some other form of untruth.  I rely on criteria Prof. Ehrman describes, independent attestation, dissimilarity, and contextual credibility, with some of my own twists.

Independent attestation (multiple sources) is always a good one, that is why it is a standard for credible journalism.  One source can be enough to make something believable if other criteria fit, but multiple sources are better.  Mary Magdalene seeing Jesus after the crucifixion is from multiple sources, making it not necessarily verified but at least more credible than if there were only one source. But dissimilarities in detail (happens all the time with multiple sources) makes it problematic.  In these cases I think the most credible details are the most likely.  In Matthew there is no mention of Mary not recognizing Jesus, in John she does not recognize him at first.  Which is most credible?  Of course Mary would recognize Jesus, unless they were some distance apart at first and she could not see his face.  So the truth may be somewhere in between Matthew and John.

Dissimilarity is an interesting one.  I tend to look at the flip-side of this (similarity) as a reason to not believe a specific passage. Matthew contains many believable passages but whenever he talks about an event that fulfills a prophesy, I immediately assume that the particular passage is not true.  The concept is similar to the modern legal concept of “against penal interest”.  A witness in a legal case is making a believable statement if it may get him into trouble.  If a witness is making a self-serving statement (“I didn’t mean to shoot that guy”), he is pretty hard to believe.

Contextual credibility is also an interesting one.  Of course there is historic context.  If something never happened, like Luke’s “everyone to his own city”, then it is pretty safe to assume that the rest of the story is not true.  But some aspects of contextual credibility are more difficult to assess. It is said that Romans would never let someone off a cross until the birds have been picking at his dead flesh, and definitely would not let someone off who is still alive. Really? We know this for sure? I look at contextual credibility with a thought toward human nature. People can be many things, including compassionate and lazy and imperfect. A Roman centurion mistakenly thinking a crucified person has died and letting him be taken down is not that unbelievable.

Contextual credibility, to me, also applies to different parts of the same book.  Not necessarily contradictions but other things that don’t make sense. In John, Jesus visits the disciples in the locked room after the crucifixion. Okay, but weren’t they all on their way back to Galilee? And when Jesus visits them again on the shore of the sea, they seem surprised to see him. Why would they be surprised? Didn’t they just see him a few days ago? I tend to see the locked room visit as a made-up story because of its contextual problems.

Another contextual problem: Why are so few of “the 12” mentioned in Acts? Seems to me Jesus selected “the 12” for his own reason, namely to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. But just how fluid was this group of 12?  I find it hard to imagine that all twelve were a consistent bunch throughout Jesus’s ministry.  It is especially hard to imagine all 12 being equally dedicated to Jesus and his message, and sticking together after the crucifixion. Peter and some of his companions went back to their normal lives as fisherman when Jesus appeared to them. What about the rest? Probably back to their normal lives, and therefore no longer part of the Christian story.

I also toss out the fantastical parts of any Gospel.  The sky did not go dark from the sixth hour to the ninth hour (unless it got cloudy that day), the veil of the temple was not rent, etc., etc.  Jesus may have met and walked with a couple men on the road to Emmaus, this incident is mentioned in Mark as well as Luke, but he certainly did not vanish before their eyes (unless the whole thing was a vision). Sounds like a simple story of meeting Jesus on the road that got embellished with the eating together and the vanishing incident.

Of course, just like with jury duty where the jury tries to determine “the facts”, differences of opinion are likely to occur, especially with regard to what testimony to believe and what not to believe. There is no simple answer to that except to have an honest discussion and try to come to some consensus. Is it worth it with something that may be completely legendary? I think so, mostly because I don’t think that the resurrection stories are completely legendary. Something like the fall of Troy in the Illiad, maybe mostly legendary but I would still like to know, the best we can, what really happened to Troy. And with something so fundamental to Christianity as the resurrection (and so many believing Christians in the world), it sure would be nice to have an alternate, believable story to counterbalance standard Christian orthodoxy.

Avatar
Stephen
4548 Posts
(Offline)
23
December 23, 2016 - 6:06 pm

Blackwell said

Stephen said
The details of the easter stories are probably completely legendary.     

This statement is also speculative.

Some details of the easter stories may be incorrect, but what evidence is there that they are completely legendary?  

The lack of any evidence that they’re historical?

Avatar
Blackwell

181 Posts
(Offline)
24
December 24, 2016 - 9:00 pm

mreichert said
“I should be more explicit about why some passages I rely on as truthful (more or less, I rarely take anything literally) and what I think of as exaggeration or some other form of untruth.  I rely on criteria Prof. Ehrman describes, independent attestation, dissimilarity, and contextual credibility, with some of my own twists.”

I agree with most of the points in this post including the above criteria for determining the reliability of reports. Contextual credibility includes continuity of action: a report must be consistent with previous and subsequent happenings. Also, our current understanding of nature is dramatically different from common beliefs of 2000 years ago, so I would be incredulous of a report that someone had been brought back to life after death, no matter how many independent attestations were provided.

Regarding Jesus’s appearance to Mary Magdalene after the crucifixion, there is actually only one source for this story, which is Mary herself. Several people independently reporting that she told them that she saw Jesus does not make the story more likely. It is likely that she and the other Mary went to the tomb early on the Sunday morning, since this would be expected behaviour, and they may have met one or two men there. It is very unlikely that Jesus was one of them, for the following reasons:                    1.  Mary did not immediately recognize him, although she had known him for years.                                                            2.  No injuries were reported, even though the person was close enough to speak to her.                                                        3.  The person did not wait for help, but instead disappeared.                                                                                           4.  If it really was Jesus, then what had happened during the previous 24 hours? Had he had anything to eat or drink? Had any care been provided? Who had unblocked the tomb?  What happened after this appearance?                                                   On the other hand, the explanation that the men were servants sent by Joseph of Arimathaea to tidy up is reasonable if Jesus had been moved on the Friday evening and nothing happened on the Sabbath following.

Did the disciples return to Galilee immediately after the crucifixion or remain in Jerusalem for a few days as instructed? (Luke 24:49) Matthew says that the eleven disciples made their way to Galilee but does not say when. Mark says that Jesus was taken up into heaven after meeting the eleven while they were at table, but does not say that this happened immediately. Luke says that he led them out as far as Bethany and then parted from them and John just finishes his story with Jesus talking to Peter.                       There is no consistency here except that all four gospels imply that Jesus’s body just disappeared. The reports by Matthew and Luke do not report any injury and do not provide continuity with previous events. Contextual credibility is not satisfied so these stories should be considered to be fictional.

Regarding the appearance of Jesus to the eleven disciples together, as reported by Mark, Luke and John, it occurred on the Sunday evening after the crucifixion and before the disciples had gone anywhere. Mark says that they were “at table”, Luke says that they were eating fish and John says that they were “behind locked doors for fear of the Jews”. Apparently, they were in someone’s house, but whose house? Since Jewish authorities could have arrested the disciples at any time, why lock doors? If the doors were locked, how did Jesus get into the house unless that is where he was staying? These questions are all answered by the hypothesis that the house belonged to an associate of Joseph of Arimathaea and Jesus had been taken there on the Friday evening. There are many little details which fit this hypothesis but it is difficult to imagine how they could have been agreed between eleven disciples if the story was made up. On the other hand, this one appearance by Jesus is sufficient to explain how subsequent accounts arose from hindsight, false memory, visions and imagination.                                                                   

          

Avatar
Blackwell

181 Posts
(Offline)
25
December 24, 2016 - 9:08 pm

Stephen said
 

“The lack of any evidence that they’re historical?”

Unfortunately, there is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. The gospels are almost the only contemporary reference so it is necessary to pick and chose the passages which seem most probable. Fortunately, there is much that can be corroborated from independent sources, so the statement “the stories are probably completely legendary” is probably completely false. 

Forum Timezone: America/Indiana/Indianapolis
All RSSShow Stats
Administrators:
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
Top Posters:
Steefen: 7710
Stephen: 4548
Porphyry: 1835
godspell: 1827
DavidFord: 1349
BJH1960: 1189
brenmcg: 1184
Colin Milton: 1142
JAS: 948
Jarek: 936
Newest Members:
Rory
DavidTharp
1stadam1stantiochian
Socoflyer
rbaird120
JosephusButJoDontBelievePhus
StoosterRooster
philohistor
LindaW
Erinmprater
Forum Stats:
Groups: 2
Forums: 13
Topics: 2606
Posts: 46054

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 65
Members: 65837
Moderators: 0
Admins: 4
Most Users Ever Online: 3559
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 68
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)