Anwsers to godspell in Bold
There is absolutely no proof, and dude, I linked to a fairly long Wikipedia article, so you should know as much as I do.
But if many people believed she could heal people, in the 20th century, and scientists and journalists couldn’t prove that she didn’t, and some people of no religious faith at all were convinced she had some kind of weird power–maybe you’re missing my point. I’m not saying she worked real miracles. I’m as skeptical as you are, but my skepticism doesn’t cut just one way. (One-way skepticism is a blunt instrument.) I think your skepticsim certainly cuts better in the doubting direction, than in the believing direction 
I’m saying that she was able to convince a lot of people that she did have the power to heal, even though she kept insisting she had no power at all, and it was just faith–the term ‘faith-healing’ can be interpreted as “If you believe you’ll be healed, you would be.” That’s just the point: it appears to me, on reading the Wikpedia article, that that, unlike the awful hyped-up charltan faith-healer US-evangelist types we are so familiar with, she never tried to convince anyone: “her works” – thousands of them (like those of Jesus) “spoke for themselves”
If you’ve read much at all (and I think you have) you know doctors talk all the time about this phenemonon. People who were supposed to die, and they didn’t–and no scientific explanation at all. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one. But they can’t find it. So they talk helplessly about the ‘mind-body connection’ and ‘spontaneous remission’, all the while knowing they have no idea what just happened. And this is Life. Like it or not. If your goal in life is to explain everything, then you are a failure by definition. Exactly and even scientific explanations of mundane every day phenomena are only partial.
So it just seems perverse to me to say “Well, miracles don’t exist, so Jesus couldn’t have been believed to be a miracle worker” when we know very well that lots of people in that time period were thought to be miracle workers, and lots of people in our more scientific era as well. Yes and there are more false acounts than true acounts (because of wishful thinking), but miracles are, by defintion, rare as we have discussed, unless you are Jesus or Aimee Semple McPherson – but they are rare themsleves. Ie ‘miracle-workers’, by defintion, are rare and an over-estimated breed and their works are almost certainly exagerated and over-estimated in number. However, as I said before, when you hit the thousands and no one seems to be able to explain a good fraction of the miracles, then there can’t be this much smoke without some fire.
Some people are like Neuro–determined to believe. Others are like you–determined to disbelieve. Maybe
I don’t think either approach qualifies as serious thought on the subject. Sometimes there’s no answer, so be like the doctors (who know more science than you ever will) and just admit you don’t know what the hell happened. Yes
To me, it seems much more likely than not that Jesus attempted to heal people, and that at least some of these people came to believe they’d been healed. No doubt, like many of the people McPherson ‘healed’, they got worse again later. But reportedly (in the 20th century, with no end of skeptics wanting to debunk her, and quite a lot of religious people who did not like her), some continued to say they were in good health. All of Jesus’s ‘pateints’ eventually died (as far as we know). Does that mean he didnt heal them? Of course not.
Maybe they were imaginary illnesses, as you say–but remind me how much psychiatrists charge an hour these days? Haven’t seen one since I was a kid. And as you can well perceive, did me no good at all. Of course Jesus healed illnesses of the mind, including ‘imaginary illnesses’, but what upset the pharisees (who would likely have understood that some ilnesses were more spiritual than physical) is Jesus performing more inexplicable healing, such as the mesianic ‘semions’ of healing people born blind or dumb.
Neurotheologian said
Yes I accept there’s only the gospels to go on, but I think most scholars accept he was considered a miracle-worker on the basis of these. Yes, he had far more important things to do, but healing allowed him to express his love and empathy for those suffering – he was well ‘aquainted with grief’Jesus saying ‘I wish’ with anger vs passion alternatives in Mark 1:41: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
NIV tranlates it as ‘indignant’ others go ‘with passion’…. apparently similar Greek words AND ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Yes, I agree that he was besieged, but he may have also felt insulted by the question: maybe he was effectively saying “of course I want you to be healed, why would you even ask that question?”
“To be, or not to be, that is the question.”
How many actors have said that line, given their rendition of that famed soliloquy?
Not one of them exactly the same way.
But at some point in the 16th century, that line was spoken for the very first time–probably by Shakespeare himself. While writing it (remember, he was an actor too), or perhaps when directing the very first actor playing Hamlet how to read it.
Elizabethan English was very different from the English we speak now–their pronounciations would sound odd to us, as ours would to them. And it would have to be spoken in such a way as to reach everybody in the Globe, an open air theater. And actors of that time were much given to ad libs, according to scholars.
So really, the notion that you can get Jesus’ exact tone of voice (not to mention his facial expression) from a few words on a piece of parchment written down decades after he was dead, by people who never laid eyes on him–it’s projection, no matter how you hear it in your head.
So I hear it as anguish. He wants to help all these people. He wants to heal everyone in the world, body and soul. Of course he does. Don’t we all? I do. But he can’t. Neither can I. Neither can you.
But the man comes to him. That’s the part I believe without question. Story after story of people coming to him to be healed, or to have someone healed. How does anyone doubt that this would happen in that era, when we see it happening constantly in this era?
People are always seeking cures to what ails them, and if they believe enough, they can be cured–and then feel sick again later. Most scientific cures are temporary as well.
Jesus is reported to say–“Your own faith has healed you.” He understood very well what was going on. Not magic. Not psychic powers. Belief.
You know, most people who report inexplicable healings (in some cases documented by medical science) because they themselves prayed–to this or that Saint. Others report healings from mystic crystals or some such. Most people who are documented to get better without any scientific explanation did not go seek out some McPherson type evangelist, lama, or shaman. It may be that sometimes it helps to have some person to focus your belief on, but it’s still your belief. Focus, visualization–New Age stuff can be just as wacko as any older form of belief, but belief can and does work. I don’t know why. It just does.
So if we could prove Jesus did do faith healings and exorcisms–and if we could prove that some of those people did get better–what would that prove? Not a damn thing, except that it happened. And we know it happens. It’s happening right now. And nobody knows why.
So let’s say Jesus was exceptionally good at (shall we say) facilitating this type of healing. He had a powerful presence, unusual charisma, and he spoke with authority on subjects relating to faith, and this made people believe in him, and this helped them believe they felt better, and it’s a medical that that feeling better can often make you better in reality.
And under Jesus’ inspiration, the disciples went and did the same, and maybe they were able to do some of the same things, but they were less gifted, on average. (And some guy who wasn’t even a disciple went out and did it better than them, and they got upset, but Jesus told them to chill, he’s on our side, it’s all good. Like all people who are good at something, Jesus had an eye for talent.)
And Jesus died, and they went on trying to do it, and maybe sometimes it worked, but a lot more often it didn’t, and that’s why they had to start coming up with explanations for why faith doesn’t always work, and it was “Hey! He’s the Son of God!” One of the reasons they had to start making Jesus more divine than human was to excuse their own perceived inadequacies.
And lost in the mix was that Jesus was painfully aware of his own indequacies.
godspell, I broadly agree with most of what you have said in the last two posts, but I don’t agree that Jesus was only exceptionally good at facilitating the spiritual / mind / psychiatric / imaginary illness (somatization) illness type of healing. I get from the Gospels (that’s all we have) that Jesus was also exceptionally good at physical miraculous healing. Both types of healing can be ‘miraculous’ of course and there is also often an overap between the 2 types. Why do you find it so hard to believe that Jesus REALLY healed people – miraculously? I think your world view has been contracted by your utter faith that science has told us everything that there is to know. We have much to learn and I contend that there is more in this world than your philosophy dreams of.
Yes, you can get that from the gospels, but you also get from the gospels (except John) that he said there were people listening to him that would live to see the Son of Man come to transform the world into God’s Kingdom. Whether he meant himself or some other entity (or some amalgram of the two), let me be very clear about this.
It. Did. Not. Happen.
I’m well aware there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in anyone’s philosophy. Yours included.
But that doesn’t mean all we dream is real. Dreams, by their nature, are unreal, though sometimes we can make something real out of them. I don’t just mean dreams relating to religion. Atheists have had many dreams that turned out to be pure fantasy–or nightmare. We are The Dream Animal, as Loren Eiseley said. We get up in the clouds, and forget to keep our feet planted on the ground.
Jesus said live as if the Kingdom was already here, and you deserved to be in it, through nothing more than being decent to other people.
That can be real. If we will it.
No paranormal superpowers required.
Which is good, because seriously–I haven’t got any. And unless you’re holding out on us, neither do you. 😉
Yes, this is a good point and, as you know from the ‘3 Questions you would want to ask the historical Jesus‘ topic, I have struggled with this myself. Of course, if you are prepared to accept that Jesus was ‘misquoted’ (to coin a Bart phrase
), then one solution is that Mark and Matthew got the ‘not tasting death until….’ and ‘this generation shall not pass away until…..‘ from a misquoted source who had conflated Jesus’s teaching about the destruction of Jersualem with his teaching about ‘the coming of the Son of Man’. A very understandable mistake and, as I pointed out to Bart: ‘you can’t have your cake and eat it’ , as we say in England, because if Jesus was miquoted in a way that suits your view, then he can just as easily have been misquoted in a way that doesn’t I’m well aware there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in anyone’s philosophy. Yours included. Agreed
But that doesn’t mean all we dream is real. Dreams, by their nature, are unreal, though sometimes we can make something real out of them. I don’t just mean dreams relating to religion. Atheists have had many dreams that turned out to be pure fantasy–or nightmare. We are The Dream Animal, as Loren Eiseley said. We get up in the clouds, and forget to keep our feet planted on the ground. Firstly, can I point out that ‘dreaming’, in my quote, was indicating a limited view of reality not an unreal fantasy(!) and, as I said to Robert a few posts back in this thread, everyday waking-consciousness, that we all have, is supernatural, even though it’s not miraculous, because it happens every day (hopefully)!
Jesus said live as if the Kingdom was already here, and you deserved to be in it, through nothing more than being decent to other people. My goodness!, that’s either a verse from the psychedelic gospel of st godsepell, or it’s a is a very peculiar paraphrase of a verse I can’t possibly trace
. Can you enighten me?
That can be real. If we will it. Still off piste: ?Nietche ? Schopenhauer
No paranormal superpowers required. Sure
Which is good, because seriously–I haven’t got any. And unless you’re holding out on us, neither do you. Well, there’s an interesting thought!!: maybe we both do and we are both holding out…….. Have you tried? I mean seriously? Have you tried converting your undoubtedly powerfull empathy and passion (like Mark 1:41, passion here, could be a textual variant and read both ways ) into prayer for those suffering around you?
godspell, just for the record my last post was a response to Neurotheologian. I quoted him.
I’m not “determined to disbelieve”. I’m simply not going to lower my standards just for Jesus. We have stories. Neurotheologian at least, has read his Hume. The wise person proportions belief to the evidence.
I studied Hume as well, and what Hume said was, reality asserts itself, no matter how we doubt it. Doesn’t matter if you can prove it. According to Hume, you can’t prove ANYTHING.
And the relevent reality here is, it’s unlikely Jesus would have gotten the reputation he got just for telling stories. You don’t have to be able to work miracles for people to think you can. How do you not know that in the world we live in?
As to who you were responding to, for the record, I don’t care. 🙂
When I watch a very good hypnotist work a crowd, I wonder what the effect would be in ancient Palestine? In the case of Jesus and McPherson, and others, we might be dealing with people who have the skills of a really good Las Vegas stage mentalist/hypnotist without really realizing what they are doing. The jury is still out on hypnosis. Quite a mystery, still. And some people might have the skill set with no training. Just a thought…
Then why don’t people go to Vegas to be healed? Frankly, most people I know who go to Vegas end up needing some form of healing afterwards. In that sense, what happens in Vegas definitely does not stay in Vegas. 😐
I don’t personally believe faith healing is supernatural in the sense most people use that term. But that doesn’t mean science can explain it. Science can’t explain why I became lactose intolerant after having ankle surgery, then stopped being lactose intolerant after I had the metal implants taken out a few years later. The mind and the body are both too complex for science to entirely fathom, so when you try to figure out exactly how they impact each other–forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.
Not everything that can’t be explained can be explained by saying “God did it.” Unless you want to say God does everything, in which case God made us sick to begin with, right?
We not only don’t know the answers, we don’t even know the right questions.
RICHWEN90 said
When I watch a very good hypnotist work a crowd, I wonder what the effect would be in ancient Palestine? In the case of Jesus and McPherson, and others, we might be dealing with people who have the skills of a really good Las Vegas stage mentalist/hypnotist without really realizing what they are doing. The jury is still out on hypnosis. Quite a mystery, still. And some people might have the skill set with no training. Just a thought…
A very important observation and great question – well done for bringing this subject up. The matter is complex because:
1. As you and gs are aware, hypnosis can certainly make people beleive they have been helaed when they haven’t
2. Hypnsis can probably do a bit more than this and it is certainly a turbo-charger of the placebo effect – but we don’t really understand why the placebo effect works (even without hypnosis)
3. Hypnotic techniques are very definitely used by many faith healers, especially charlatans, but not excluisvely.
4. Others apparently heal without obviously using hypnotic techniques
5. Just expecting to be healed (faith!?) induces hypnotic suggestibility / placebo effects – this certainly played a role in some of Jesus’s and the apostles healings, but I don’t think that this was the full story
More anon
“Jesus said to the blind man, ‘Your eyelids are getting heavy”–I perceive a problem here.
“Jesus said to the deaf man–“–okay, that broke down fast.
“Jesus said ‘Little girl, you are very tired! You will now drift into a deep relaxing sleep until you hear me say the mystic words, Talitha Cumi!’ Well, we don’t believe that story is based on fact. Um–we don’t believe that, right, Neuro?
Maybe Jesus hypnotized the man possessed by demons to believe he was possessed by demons, then snapped his fingers to bring him out of it? Maybe people just assumed the man was possessed by demons, when in fact he just thought he was a chicken. Flapping his arms, making clucking sounds. Could easily be misunderstood. Of course, in Vegas, everybody’s drinking and breathing super-oxygenated air, so they’ll go back to the casino after the show and lose everything they own. I don’t remember anything in the gospels about dice games or slot machines. They hadn’t invented poker yet, right?
I don’t think Jesus used hypnosis. Or had any idea what that was.
Important to point out, most of the miracles couldn’t possibly be hypnosis unless they were mass hypnosis, with Jesus putting everybody around him under his spell, and making them all believe he’d just performed a miracle. Which would pretty much be a miracle. There’s no evidence anybody can do that. Even in Vegas.
Maybe something distantly akin to what hypnotists do. But hypnotists have not, typically, been able to cure people of physical or mental ailments. Hell, most of the time they can’t even make anyone stop smoking.
Actually, the standard “trance induction” procedures are mostly for show, part of the act, so to speak. As I understand it, there are actually subtler ways to get the degree of suggestibility required. There’s an interesting book, The Race Between Sanity and Madness, by Rhodes. It’s very much about hypnotic technique and methods of control by hypnotic technique. An odd read but a bit unsettling. I found it in a used bookstore, long out of print.
I understand all that, but could not resist the gaglines. 😉
I don’t see much in the gospels to suggest Jesus is using anything resembling modern hypnotic techniques.
But if you want to pursue this idea, might want to read up on Grigori Rasputin. The all-too-real modern historical figure who sounds more mythical than Jesus, sometimes.
Any divine savior in the ancient world worth his salt would have magic powers. Attempts to rationalize Jesus’ magic powers seem to me to be missing the point. The gospels ascribe to Jesus these powers of healing and exorcism but that doesn’t mean the historical Jesus was a healer or an exorcist anymore than the stories of Jesus rising from the dead mean that he actually rose from the dead.
Stephen said
Any divine savior in the ancient world worth his salt would have magic powers. Attempts to rationalize Jesus’ magic powers seem to me to be missing the point. The gospels ascribe to Jesus these powers of healing and exorcism but that doesn’t mean the historical Jesus was a healer or an exorcist anymore than the stories of Jesus rising from the dead mean that he actually rose from the dead.
Hi Stephen. We’ve had this discussion earlier in the thread. My view (for what it is worth) is that these powers of Jesus were not mythical retropective attributions of a canonized and deified rabbi who, in his historical lifetime, was simply a good teacher. No, rather I beleive these were contemporaneously multiply attested (to the point of ‘famous’) mircalulous acts. So, I don’t beleive we are missing the point, but I think you ight be
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