The Tradition of the Elders7 Now when the Pharisees gathered together to him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, 2 they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they wash their hands,[** you do not have permission to see this link **] observing the tradition of the elders; 4 and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify[** you do not have permission to see this link **]) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live[** you do not have permission to see this link **]according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
‘This people honors me with their lips, 8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” |
The Tradition of the Elders15 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands before they eat.” 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said,[** you do not have permission to see this link **] of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied rightly about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, |
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8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” 9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God)[** you do not have permission to see this link **]— 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God through your tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.” |
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| 14 And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.”[** you do not have permission to see this link **] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man. |
Things That Defile10 Then he called the crowd to him and said to them, “Listen and understand:11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles.” 12 Then the disciples approached and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind.[** you do not have permission to see this link **] And if one blind person guides another, both will fall into a pit.”15 But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” 16 Then he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this is what defiles.19 For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.” |
1. why has matthew left out the stuff in parenthesis?
2. matthew seems to have the disciples ask for clarification in the open while mark seems to have them enter the house and then seek clarification.
3. matthew ends with “unwashed hands does not defile”
why did he add this information ? is matthew saying that if kosher food gets dirty with unwashed hands then it is not forbidden to eat???
4. matthews + marks jesus sees hand washing + cleaning of dishes as invented traditions of men?
by leaving out “he declared all foods clean” (marks understanding) is matthew doing this for his jewish community or is his community understanding that foods including non kosher are clean anyway so no need to mention marks understanding?
Kazibwe Edris said
unable to editi can’t see the edit button.
matthew 15:11
and
Mark 7:15
You could just repost, Kazorama!
As to things that defile.
Dale Allison said Jesus liked to say provocative things ( I don’t know how he can say that, if we are not real sure whether Jesus said many of the things attributed to him) but I don’t think the point of the verse is to say don’t be afraid to pick your butt before you reach for the mashed potatoes. Isn’t the point to emphasize the idea that: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles. Consider that if you place importance on washing your hands before a meal, this teaching might encourage you to think more about what comes out of your heart?
Consider that if you place importance on washing your hands before a meal, this teaching might encourage you to think more about what comes out of your heart?
i don’t think matthews jesus knew the health benefit and seems to be arguing against spiritual benefit of external practice when he says,
matthew
20 These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
mark
And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?”
i don’t think the priestly writers would have been happy that yhwhs command not to eat forbidden foods was reduced to stomach and drain.
Kazibwe Edris said
i don’t think matthews jesus knew the health benefit…
Based on what? I think you will find that Jewish kosher laws were well known even at the peasant level. Whether there’s a specific health issue at stake is not clear unless you want to say Kosher laws are based on good health. I’m not sure if avoiding defilement translates to what is healthy in the sense we think about it.
i’ll quote carrier on this
here is the relevant verse is Mark 7:2 which reads in Greek:
kai idontes tinas tôn mathêtôn autou hoti koinais chersin tout estin aniptois esthiousin tous artous
Which translate literally as:
and / they were seeing / some / of his disciples / that / with defiled hands / that is, unwashed [hands] / they ate / their bread.
The key word “unwashed” is aniptos (likewise again in Mark 7:5). It means what it says: unwashed.
The phrase “in the way” is nowhere in the text. Even the next verse reads only:
For / the Pharisees / and / all the Jews / if they do not wash / their hands / by fist / they do not eat / holding fast / the tradition / of the elders / and / when [they come] / from the marketplace / if they do not / cleanse themselves / they do not eat / and / many / other things / there are / which they have received / to hold fast to: / washing / of cups / and / pots / and bronze vessels.
You will see no reference to the words your translation inserts. Those words simply aren’t there. The phrase “to the wrist” is a modern attempt to interpret “by fist” [dative of pugmê], the more direct meaning of which is that they wash their hands with their fists (i.e. the way we scrub our hands, enclosing one in the fist of the other), meaning they wash well. Note that the disciples are not said to have washed less well, but to not have washed at all.
Hence what is being described is simply washing their hands, which “some of the disciples” weren’t doing–their hands were “unwashed” (notably, the tradition Jesus goes on to denounce here included washing your cooking and drinking utensils, too, cf. Mark 7:4, another obvious vector for germs that Jesus was evidently unaware of).
so it seem that jesus didn’t know about germs and that after his disiples heard him say :
“these are the things defiling the man; but to eat with unwashen hands doth not defile the man.”
they would not rush to the nearest sink and wash their hands. did jesus see ritual practice in what the pharisees were doing and was he advising against it? it seems so to me.
February 18, 2014
I think Christians do it today for a reason neither the Pharisees nor Jesus nor anyone else in antiquity either thought of or would have understood. Germs.
so for a man god to say “tradition of men” when in reality “tradition of men” has benefits which can save lives means that the man god was ignorant of unseen things
Kazibwe Edris said
i’ll quote carrier on this
here is the relevant verse is Mark 7:2 which reads in Greek:
kai idontes tinas tôn mathêtôn autou hoti koinais chersin tout estin aniptois esthiousin tous artous
Which translate literally as:
and / they were seeing / some / of his disciples / that / with defiled hands / that is, unwashed [hands] / they ate / their bread.
The key word “unwashed” is aniptos (likewise again in Mark 7:5). It means what it says: unwashed.
The phrase “in the way” is nowhere in the text. Even the next verse reads only:
For / the Pharisees / and / all the Jews / if they do not wash / their hands / by fist / they do not eat / holding fast / the tradition / of the elders / and / when [they come] / from the marketplace / if they do not / cleanse themselves / they do not eat / and / many / other things / there are / which they have received / to hold fast to: / washing / of cups / and / pots / and bronze vessels.
You will see no reference to the words your translation inserts. Those words simply aren’t there. The phrase “to the wrist” is a modern attempt to interpret “by fist” [dative of pugmê], the more direct meaning of which is that they wash their hands with their fists (i.e. the way we scrub our hands, enclosing one in the fist of the other), meaning they wash well. Note that the disciples are not said to have washed less well, but to not have washed at all.
Hence what is being described is simply washing their hands, which “some of the disciples” weren’t doing–their hands were “unwashed” (notably, the tradition Jesus goes on to denounce here included washing your cooking and drinking utensils, too, cf. Mark 7:4, another obvious vector for germs that Jesus was evidently unaware of).
so it seem that jesus didn’t know about germs and that after his disiples heard him say :
“these are the things defiling the man; but to eat with unwashen hands doth not defile the man.”
they would not rush to the nearest sink and wash their hands. did jesus see ritual practice in what the pharisees were doing and was he advising against it? it seems so to me.
Kaz:
What are you smoking? My translation? And how is Carrier a relevant expert? Shouldn’t you be getting your translation from an expert in koine greek?
The fact that there was concern over cleanliness means it was important. I dont think anyone in their right mind was arguing that Jesus was aware of germs. But the question is what does the statement mean in terms of,
“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. ** you do not have permission to see this link **“These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”
As I pointed out Dale Allison argued Jesus liked to say provocative things So is Jesus ignorant of the importance of washing your hands (which didn’t have to be about germs) or was he saying something provocative to make people think. Isn’t the key to the whole passage how the term defile is used? And doesn’t he describe “evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders” as defiling the man?
Is it likely Jesus was ignorant of the importance of cleanliness, but it’s also probable he was being provocative to make a point.
Now this is the question you need to address not some made up translation I never offered.
As I pointed out Dale Allison argued Jesus liked to say provocative things So is Jesus ignorant of the importance of washing your hands (which didn’t have to be about germs) or was he saying something provocative to make people think. Isn’t the key to the whole passage how the term defile is used? And doesn’t he describe “evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders” as defiling the man?
the man god thinks that the washing up activities = tradition of men
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8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.” |
i thought that it was a perfect and teachable time to teach that the pharisee tradition was 100% correct , but the man god saw nothing but ritual in the washing up activities.
Kazibwe Edris said
As I pointed out Dale Allison argued Jesus liked to say provocative things So is Jesus ignorant of the importance of washing your hands (which didn’t have to be about germs) or was he saying something provocative to make people think. Isn’t the key to the whole passage how the term defile is used? And doesn’t he describe “evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders” as defiling the man?
the man god thinks that the washing up activities = tradition of men
8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
i thought that it was a perfect and teachable time to teach that the pharisee tradition was 100% correct , but the man god saw nothing but ritual in the washing up activities.
WHAT!!!?
The question was whether Jesus thought washing your hands was beneficial; not whether you think you are professor of religion.
Some people argue that Jesus was, himself, a pharisee.
What the heck does man god mean are you saying the man that god thinks or are you saying the man/god thinks?
Kazibwe Edris said
As I pointed out Dale Allison argued Jesus liked to say provocative things So is Jesus ignorant of the importance of washing your hands (which didn’t have to be about germs) or was he saying something provocative to make people think. Isn’t the key to the whole passage how the term defile is used? And doesn’t he describe “evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders” as defiling the man?
the man god thinks that the washing up activities = tradition of men
8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”
WHAT!!!?
The question was whether Jesus thought washing your hands was beneficial; not whether you think you are professor of religion.
Some people argue that Jesus was, himself, a pharisee.
Your citation of verse 8 is out of context: That refers to “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’;”
It’s an entirely different section of the text 12 verses before the statement about washing your hands!
What the heck does man god mean are you saying the man that god thinks or are you saying the man/god thinks?
i thought that it was a perfect and teachable time to teach that the pharisee tradition was 100% correct , but the man god saw nothing but ritual in the washing up iactivities.
IF you’rte trying to “teach” how about actually answering the question
Seems to me you would have been better off citing verse 7
“7 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed.”
Kaz:
You’ll see that form critics make a very similar point to what I have been saying. Suppose, just for the sake of argument that, the story is written to address concerns in a hypothetical Markan community. Suppose further that the point of the story is to contrast an over emphasis on washing hands but no interest in what truly defiles a man (in god’s eyes) “evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.” That a riposte as such with a sharp contrast the two might bring the latter into clearer relief.
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