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what are arguments for and against Jesus receiving some vision at time of baptism as according to Mark ?
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tompicard

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September 5, 2019 - 6:04 pm
Mark’s version
The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. . . .
At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness,
and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

 

———————-

Isn’t it correct that that the VISION is multiply attested Mark, Q, John ?

How ever the story of Jesus’ vision began, all awkwardness could have been avoided by placing it ANYWHERE OTHER than at his baptism by John, therefore shouldn’t we also say that it passes it the criteria of embarrassment. 

Some scholars say Jesus baptism by John couldn’t be left out because it was well known that he was a follower of John. But in fact, whether or not Jesus was a follower of John, IS COMPLETELY LEFT OUT of Mark.

In fact Mark’s version implies Jesus was NOT a follower of John, unless you were to similarly claim that “ALL the people of of Jerusalem” were John’s disciples”

Paul began his mission when he had some kind of vision, as  did Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc, so there is certainly no immediate reason to doubt Jesus had some kind of vision/revelation to a greater degree than you would doubt the visions ascribed to  Paul and previous prophets.

The revelation Jesus had,  as described by Mark, is not in the least extraordinary, compared to earlier visions recorded in scripture, merely a recognition that God loves him.

Mark’s version does not portray Jesus as unique nor as only-begotten nor as sinless as we see with the additions in later versions. 

So what are the arguments against the historicity of Mark’s version of Jesus version?

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Robert
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September 5, 2019 - 6:16 pm
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tompicard

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September 5, 2019 - 6:50 pm

aren’t the temptations assumed in q, (yeah it is possible the temptations are distinct from the vision though they seem couples)

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Robert
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September 5, 2019 - 6:51 pm
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tompicard

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September 5, 2019 - 7:31 pm

So the consensus is that these 3 events have distinct origins ? that does not sound like simplest or likeliest explanation to me.

1) baptism – scholars think historical

either 

a)  everyone knew of Jesus baptism – Mark doesn’t present Jesus as a disciple only that he came from Galilee to Jordan and it seemed a good idea at the time to get baptized. Jesus getting baptized along with “all people of Jerusalem” hardly sounds like an incident that people would normally take note of.

or

b) Jesus told people he was baptized by John – but why would he tell people that UNLESS there was additional aspects to his story  (i.e vision and temptation) 

 

2) vision – scholars think ahistorical – maybe Mark’s fiction 

3) temptation – (not sure what scholars think of this 3rd event)  either

a) historical and reported by Mark and Q (but if historical where did the history come from except as told by Jesus to disciples (he was alone in desert))

b) ahistorical but created independently by Mark and Q 

 

Note: according to Mark  ALL these events happened PRIOR to his ministry – So who would be paying attention to him? No One.

 

My opinion is

seems like 3 events are likely a single incident reported by Jesus to his followers

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Robert
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September 5, 2019 - 7:50 pm
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tompicard

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September 5, 2019 - 8:20 pm

apologize

 

i was not implying you said any of the above that you take offense to

Robert said

tompicard should have said
Is So the consensus is that these 3 events have distinct origins ? that does not sound like simplest or likeliest explanation to me.

and 

Robert said

tompicard should have said

3) temptation – Do  not sure what scholars think of this 3rd event
either

a) historical ?

I was imprecise I understand and I appreciate your reminding me that that

 in Q and in Mark does NOT necessarily imply independently attested (but I though it it usually did),  and likewise independently attested does not imply historical  

i was not taking that into consideration and should have been more precise rather than leaping to conclusion that from in Q and in Mark to historical

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Robert
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September 5, 2019 - 8:27 pm
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Robert
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September 5, 2019 - 8:44 pm
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tompicard

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September 6, 2019 - 9:17 am

I think undue concern of scholarly consensus is not helpful

many different contradictory theories even among some truly great scholars

 

But my query is more basic,   

Is it reasonable to believe that these two or three events have different origins ?

2 events – John’s baptism of Jesus and Jesus vision, or

3 event – John baptism of Jesus and Jesus vision and Jesus time in the wilderness

I think that it is unreasonable to contend they have different origins for the reasons mentioned above

 

Maybe no one has investigated this question, but that seems unlikely 

the answer to the question should have implications on the historical validity of the events, that is 

A) if they have the same origin, then they are all historical or all not histroical

B) if they have different origins then it is possible 1 or more are historical and others not

is that a false dichotomy, I don’t think so but if so please explain why

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godspell

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September 6, 2019 - 12:27 pm

For the record, I think Jesus probably had some kind of religious experience during/after his baptism, because duh. 

As to how would you prove this, basically you can’t prove anything, and it’s just a matter of what’s probable, given the information we possess.  We assume Jesus was baptized by John because early Christians would have preferred that not be the case, but we also assume the gospel writers dressed it up a bit to make it seem Jesus was still more important than John.

Mark’s account of the baptism doesn’t say anybody else heard God’s voice–only Jesus.  Let’s assume he told some version of that story.  How you could ever prove what somebody did or did not hear inside his own head–????? 

Paul shared a very sketchy version of his revelation on the road to Damascus (that mentions neither a road nor Damascus).  We don’t know he had any such revelation.  We just know that he refers to it rather obliquely, and that there was apparently some more involved account of it that circulated among Christians, and ended up in Acts.  But is it likely that Paul would have changed directions so abruptly without some kind of experience like that?  No.  Do we know of incidents in modern times where people changed their lives in response to a vision they either had or claimed to have?  Obviously.  Do we know the human mind is capable of such visions?  As much as we can know anything about our own minds. 

So is this a durable pattern in human existence?  Self-evidently.  Does the story of said vision necessarily correspond well to what the person in question really experienced? How the hell would I know?  Nobody will ever know.  The people Jesus theoretically told this story to wouldn’t know.  Jesus himself might not have clearly remembered what he experienced, might have embellished it over time. Almost certainly would have done so. 

If we had it in Jesus’ own handwriting (that we would somehow know was his) he had this experience, that would just be proof he said he had this experience.  Lincoln told people he had dreams some people today think are prophetic.  Do we know he had these dreams?  No.  I had a dream night before last where two friends of mine were working at jobs they don’t have in reality, and my dog was in it.  Do you know I had this dream? I could be making it up to prove a point.  Also, my memory of the dream is a bit fuzzy.  I should have probably written it down when I woke up, but I didn’t know I was going to be using it to prove a point.

There is good reason to believe Jesus had a religious experience in connection to his baptism by John.  We don’t know it for a fact.  We don’t even know for a fact he was baptized by John, but there is better reason to believe that. 

But for me, the primary thing proven here is that I’m not the only one Robert sometimes has issues with.  That is a fact

😉

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tompicard

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September 6, 2019 - 1:49 pm

godspell said For the record, I think Jesus probably had some kind of religious experience during/after his baptism, because duh. 

Mark’s account of the baptism doesn’t say anybody else heard God’s voice–only Jesus.  Let’s assume he told some version of that story.  How you could ever prove what somebody did or did not hear inside his own head–????? 

the question is not what we can prove occurred between God and Jesus.

the question is did this set of events as described by Mark originate with Jesus or with later christianity which has some implications; just to name a few  – 1st century religious messianic callings, credibility of Mark in general, compatibility of  vision/voice with Jesus’ ministry, etc

Robert has also commented that it’s “not at all implausible that Jesus had visions”

Crossan categorizes the baptism and vision together in one unit and the temptations as a different unit, both he lists as multiple attested and both in his opinion historical (but since he list baptism and vision together as one unit, I can’t be sure he thinks the vision in particular is historical)

Meier I think (not sure) doesn’t accept the vision as historical though he accepts baptism 

I seem to recall Bart saying he doesn’t think the vision was historical but I could be wrong on that

I am not sure what is the argument against Jesus having a vision (as described by Mark) at the time of his baptism  .. .

[reporting it to his followers isn’t explicitly mentioned by Mark but i would think it is implicit] 

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godspell

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September 6, 2019 - 3:05 pm

The vision, as described by Mark, was internal, not witnessed by others at the time.  There is nothing hard to believe about this, in the context of someone who belonged to an apocalyptic Jewish cult.  The man described to us does in fact frequently behave as if he were in the grip of a religious vision, so no reason at all to think he wasn’t, or that many others have not been.

The question, as you say, is did Jesus actually relate such a story to his followers, and does Mark give us a reasonable approximation of what he related.  The former seems very likely, the latter much less so, transmission error being what it is.  And Mark was an adoptionist, so it’s a bit convenient that Jesus is having a vision that confirms his adoption by God.  How exactly Jesus perceived his relationship with God and his role in God’s plan must be considered ambiguous, because we have nothing directly from him, and we don’t know Mark’s sources.  Very unlikely to have been firsthand, and firsthand sources would not be 100% reliable.

So I guess it comes down to what you believe.  I believe the baptism couldn’t have survived as part of Christian belief if Jesus hadn’t repeatedly underscored its significance.  Otherwise, they’d have tried to bury it–certainly wouldn’t have appeared in all four surviving gospels (though John’s gospel tries to subvert and negate it–which only goes to show how widespread the knowledge of it was). 

If the baptism hadn’t mattered to Jesus, it wouldn’t have mattered to his followers, and it wouldn’t have mattered to early Christianity, and we wouldn’t be talking about it now.  Why did it matter so much?  Because, one might reason, it was a turning point of some kind for him.  Why would that be? 

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tompicard

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September 6, 2019 - 7:02 pm

fwiw:

at 

** you do not have permission to see this link **

by ** you do not have permission to see this link **

we have 

The . . . evidence does not lead to certainty, but the weight of the evidence leads me to a conclusion of probability: the text of Q most likely contained an account of Jesus’ baptism and the theophany.

Webb also mentions that The Gospel of The Hebrews (he considers independent of canonical gospels) and of the Gospel Ebionites (he considers dependent on canonical gospels) also  reference Jesus vision may add to the number of independent attestations

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godspell

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September 6, 2019 - 7:30 pm

Mark didn’t have Q, though.  Gospel of the Hebrews is believed to have been written later.  Wherever this tradition came from, it was very widespread.  Which would tend to substantiate that it was something widely known to Jesus’ original followers, which means they probably got it from him.  Jesus himself was the source of the original baptism story.  If it had just been gossip from John’s followers insisting on their master’s priority, they could have written it out (as John the Evangelist eventually did).  Jesus himself emphasized the tremendous importance of The Baptist.  And to this day, you can’t read the synoptics with clear eyes, and not see how crucial John was to Jesus’ development.  And without wishing you could know more.  

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Stephen
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September 6, 2019 - 8:49 pm

Robert wrote

We cannot rule out the possibility that the gospel of John was not at least indirectly dependent upon the gospel of Mark or other synoptic gospels. So ‘independent attestation’ is at best debatable.

I’ve been pondering this for the last couple years.  I’ve read several attempts to demonstrate some relationship online and hardcopy and all they’ve done is convince me otherwise.   Who do you think makes the best case for a dependency?  If I’m lucky it’ll be someone I’m unfamiliar with.

It it[sic] true for most scholars Mark and Q are considered independent, but some truly great scholars challenge this assumption.

Sure but I ask you, how could an author like the genius who wrote Mark have all that scrumptious dialogue available and not use any of it?

___

We have zero access to Jesus’ internal spiritual life.  Was he an ecstatic visionary?  He wouldn’t be the first mystic prophet in Judaism.  How else would he have convinced himself he had a special destiny unless God’s finger touched him right between the eyes?

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September 6, 2019 - 9:02 pm
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September 6, 2019 - 9:53 pm
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