I haven’t, obviously, read everything Dr. Ehrman has written or heard each one of his lectures but I’ve always wanted to ask for his views on the following question (everyone else’s views are also welcome, of course):
How did the First Jewish-Roman War influence the content of the Gospels and, particularly, the character (and characteristics) of Jesus and his teachings? I mean, the Mark’s Gospel is believed to have been written around the time the first war took place. Mark’s and subsequent Gospels could not have been written in a complete vacuum unaffected by such a catastrophic event. It seems to me that personalizing religious beliefs and rites especially where there is no more a temple to go to would be of great solace to the early (Jewish?) followers of Jesus.
Syed Masood
How did the First Jewish-Roman War influence the content of the Gospels and, particularly, the character (and characteristics) of Jesus and his teachings?
Steefen
Jesus of Galilee who lost the land and the sea battle against Vespasian was re-written in the gospels as a messiah who would not have thought of starting a battle with the Roman Empire.
Jesus of Galilee was not the only person represented by the biblical Jesus. The biblical Jesus was a composite character of historical fiction. Also, note: roman a clef: a novel in which real people or events appear with invented names. The actions of Jesus in the Bible could be connected to historical people with different names.
Syed Masood
I mean, Mark’s Gospel is believed to have been written around the time the first war took place. Mark’s and subsequent Gospels could not have been written in a complete vacuum unaffected by such a catastrophic event.
Steefen
Mark’s gospel could not have been written in Greek in a complete vacuum, unaffected by such a catastrophic event.
Syed Masood
It seems to me that personalizing religious beliefs and rites especially where there is no more a temple to go to would be of great solace to the early (Jewish?) followers of Jesus.
Steefen
Here, I would say you are not standing on solid ground because circa 20 C.E. – 100 C.E., throughout the Roman Empire, there was a movement from the worshipping Olympians and keeping household rituals to the inclusion of mystery religions which were more ecstatic and personal.
Personalizing religious beliefs via Jesus as solace for no more sacrifices at the Temple of Jerusalem is stated where?
Well, I cannot make my yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem to sacrifice a lamb, but I have solace that Jesus, a human being, was sacrificed 40 years earlier. That is not post-AD 70 solace substitute.
No, Syed. I do not agree with you.
Hi Steefan,
You’ve piqued my interest:
“Jesus of Galilee who lost the land and the sea battle against Vespasian” Is this from Josephus?
“circa 20 C.E. – 100 C.E., throughout the Roman Empire, there was a movement from the worshipping Olympians and keeping household rituals to the inclusion of mystery religions which were more ecstatic and personal” Where did you get this from?
Syed Masood
Hi Steefan,
Steefen
The letter “a” is not in the spelling of the name “Steefen”.
Syed Masood
You’ve piqued my interest:
“Jesus of Galilee who lost the land and the sea battle against Vespasian” Is this from Josephus?
Steefen
Yes: The Wars of the Jews, Book 3, Chapters 9 and 10
Syed Masood
“circa 20 C.E. – 100 C.E., throughout the Roman Empire, there was a movement from the worshipping Olympians and keeping household rituals to the inclusion of mystery religions which were more ecstatic and personal” Where did you get this from?
Steefen
The Great Courses – Fall of the Pagans, lecture 4, Professor Kenneth Harl / Tulane
Then some books on mystic cults, including Mithraism.
When I have time, I will provide more details.
I am thinking the wave of mysticism happened after the reign of Augustus Caesar, not during his reign which ended with his death in 14 CE (if during his reign, it would have been towards the end of that reign). I do not think we have to wait until Vespasian’s military when Mithraism was present with his soldiers.
Beginnings of Roman Mithraism
The origins and spread of the Mysteries have been intensely debated among scholars and there are radically differing views on these issues. According to Clauss mysteries of Mithras were not practiced until the 1st century CE. According to Ulansey, the earliest evidence for the Mithraic mysteries places their appearance in the middle of the 1st Century BCE: The historian Plutarch says that in 67 BCE the pirates of Cilicia (a province on the southeastern coast of Asia Minor) were practicing “secret rites” of Mithras. However, according to Daniels, whether any of this relates to the origins of the mysteries is unclear. The unique underground temples or mithraea appear suddenly in the archaeology in the last quarter of the 1st century CE.
Steefen
Maybe the pirates of Cilicia were practicing an Iranian/Persian form of the cult, not Roman Mithraism.
Syed Masood said
Steefen,Are these the only references to a Jesus in Josephus’s histories? Isn’t there some debate about whether references to Jesus are a later addition?
Steefen
Steve Mason is professor of history and Canada Research Chair in Greco-Roman Cultural Interaction at York University, Toronto. He is the author of Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees and general editor of the twelve-volume series Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary.
Steve Mason also wrote a book, Josephus and The New Testament. He does NOT conclude the Testimonium Flavianum is 100% a later addition.
Syed Masood
Are these the only references to a Jesus in Josephus’s histories?
Steefen
Are these the only references to a Jesus in the works of Josephus? These? I mentioned Jesus of Galilee who lost the battle of Galilee to Vespasian. That is one person.
Steefen
1. You said there are others.
2. Syed is counting the fictitious/mythical man who was born but not conceived by a man and a woman.
3. Syed is counting the fictitious/mythical man of the Testimonium Flavianum
…
Steefen
Fine. Let me just go on and answer his question. Syed, the answer is no, these are not the only references to a Jesus in Josephus’s histories.
Jesus of Galilee was not the only person represented by the biblical Jesus. The biblical Jesus was a composite character of historical fiction. Also, note: roman a clef: a novel in which real people or events appear with invented names.
Therefore you are going to find in the works of Josephus references to the biblical Jesus named Jesus and not named Jesus.
The biblical Jesus is named Jesus and is also named Emmanuel/Imanu’el. At least look for these two names in the works of Josephus.
Also, it is only in the gospel of John that there is the resurrection of Lazarus/Eleazar. If, as the Synoptic gospels’ content, there is only one resurrection, Lazarus/Eleazar is another name to search in the works of Josephus.
Furthermore, there is the Woe-saying Jesus which contributes to the biblical woe-saying Jesus. Both of them
1. have a premonition of great/devastating suffering in Jerusalem
2. both are brought to the attention of Judea’s Roman governor
3. both are beaten
4. both governors have the impression the man is faultless (in the case of Josephus’ woe-saying Jesus, the governor sees him as mentally disturbed)
Thank you for your question.
Regards,
Steefen
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