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What we have to fear, and what judgment is for
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Tjalling

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July 19, 2026 - 4:44 am

I want to raise something about Dr. Bart Ehrman’s What the Hell? course, which he presented on the Paths platform last Saturday. Not as a criticism of the historical scholarship, but out of concern about the scope of its conclusion and about what is left unsaid when a harmful picture of hell has been dismantled. The historical case was carefully made. On the account presented, Sheol is not hell. Gehenna is a valley, and the threat concerns a shameful fate for the corpse. The later doctrine of immortal souls undergoing eternal conscious torment is a development, not the teaching of the historical Jesus.

That distinction matters. Many people have spent years, sometimes their whole lives, terrified that a wrongly lived life, a mistaken belief or an unresolved doubt might lead to endless torture. To hear that Jesus did not teach such a thing can bring genuine relief. That relief is real, and I do not want to qualify it or take it away. But the historical reconstruction presented in the webinar still contains something severe.

On Bart’s own account, Jesus taught a coming judgment. Some enter the kingdom. Others are excluded and described as weeping and gnashing their teeth. As he explained it, they are deeply distressed because they have been shut out. They are then destroyed and never brought back. That is why the punishment is called eternal: not because the experience of pain continues endlessly, but because the loss is irreversible. Within that historical picture, then, there is judgment, exclusion, conscious distress and definitive loss. What is denied is the endless conscious torment of immortal souls. That is a narrower conclusion than “there is nothing to fear,” and it is the conclusion for which the historical evidence was presented.

The closing moved differently. It went from “this did not come from the Hebrew Bible,” to “this did not come from Jesus,” to “this is not the original form of Christianity,” to “it doesn’t make sense,” and finally to “it almost certainly is not true.” The first two are historical conclusions. The third is also historical as stated, but in the movement towards the final conclusion it begins to carry normative force, as though being original helps determine what is valid. The final two are philosophical judgments. They may be defensible, but they do not follow from the historical findings alone.

Several distinctions are folded together here:

No eternal torment is not the same as no judgment.
No immortal soul in hell is not the same as no consequence after death.
“This particular picture is almost certainly untrue” is not the same as “there is nothing to fear.”

This broader movement was visible during the evening itself. Within minutes of the first lecture ending, one participant asked: “If there is no hell doesn’t that negate the significance of the cross? Also what happens to the need for salvation?” Another wrote in the same interval: “if he is not saving me from hell, what am I missing?” These questions do not show that the lecture caused such conclusions, and they do not make Bart responsible for every inference that listeners bring with them. But they do show that the broader movement is alive: from no eternal torment to no hell, from no hell to no need for salvation, and from there to no intelligible significance for the cross. That is why the scope of the conclusion matters.

There is also a deeper question about what judgment is for. The lectures opened with a real moral and theological problem. Good people suffer. The wicked prosper. Victims die without vindication. Perpetrators sometimes die peacefully, honoured and unexposed. If death simply closes the account, the same silence receives the tortured child and the unrepentant torturer. Bart explained that this unresolved injustice helped give rise to Jewish apocalyptic hope. The expectation of resurrection and judgment was not merely a speculative interest in the geography of the afterlife. It was a protest against the thought that violence, lies, oppression and death might have the final word. That protest remains even when eternal torment is rejected.

A later solution has been dismantled, but the wound for which it was devised is still present. One participant put it before the lectures had even begun: if there is no hell, and perhaps no heaven, do we simply work for justice while knowing that there will be no ultimate justice? The question was still there at the end, and it was not taken up. I understand that Bart is a historian, he is not a Christian, and he does not owe anyone a theological answer. The issue is therefore not personal omission, but the composition of the evening. The lectures began by treating the longing for final justice as a serious human and historical force. They ended by giving reassurance about punishment without returning to the need for justice that had produced the expectation of judgment in the first place.

The distinction above is the reason I am writing this post. I would regret it if what follows caused that argument to disappear from view. Readers do not need to share my own theological convictions in order to consider the historical and methodological point I have made. Here I move beyond the historical question and speak as a Christian. Nothing that follows is a claim about what the sources establish, nor is it part of my argument about the way the webinar concluded. I offer it instead as a constructive possibility: not as evidence, but as a gift.

Judgment need not mean a divine torture chamber or an infinite multiplication of pain. It can mean that truth is finally spoken about every human life. That what was hidden is brought into the light. That victims are not forgotten. That power cannot eternally rename cruelty as virtue. That the hungry, the stranger, the sick and the imprisoned matter more than the reputations of those who passed them by.

In Jesus’ own judgment sayings, the question is rarely offered as information to detached spectators. He does not give us a map from which we can calmly calculate the destination of others. The question turns back on the hearer.

Did you feed the hungry?
Did you welcome the stranger?
Did you visit the sick and the imprisoned?

Read in that spirit, the question reaches further into our own lives. Did you make life possible for another person, or did your presence become a kind of hell for them?

That participant perspective matters. A doctrine of judgment becomes corrupt when it allows people to stand safely outside it, assigning others to punishment while assuming their own place among the blessed. The warning is addressed first to the person who hears it.

The deepest danger may therefore not be that somewhere beneath the earth there is a mechanism of endless torture. It may be that a human being can become so shaped by falsehood, indifference, domination and refusal of love that the light itself is experienced as exposure, truth as judgment and communion as something alien. If life is found in God, then separation from that life is not a minor penalty added from outside. It is death. If truth, light, bread, welcome and communion are made known in Christ, then their refusal has a recognisable negative form: falsehood, darkness, hunger, exclusion and isolation.

Those are not merely future possibilities. We know them already. We create them for one another. Every city has its places of abandonment. Every society has people who are treated as though they were already outside the gate. Every tradition, including the Christian tradition, has sometimes used the threat of hell to produce hell in the present. That is why relief from eternal torment should not become relief from moral seriousness.

The point of judgment is not to restore balance by reproducing suffering on an infinite scale. It is God’s active no to evil: the refusal to let cruelty, falsehood and exclusion stand as though they were finally harmless or inconsequential. Judgment means not only that the truth is spoken, but that evil is exposed, opposed and brought to an end. It is the refusal to say that suffering, injustice and destruction are ultimately meaningless, and the hope that death does not erase the distinction between the one who was crushed and the one who did the crushing.

Christian hope goes further than the expectation that wrongdoers will finally receive pain proportionate to the pain they caused. Its centre is not a perfected system of retribution, but the victory of life over death, truth over lies and communion over exclusion. The claim is not simply that there will be a final punishment. It is that evil will not remain sovereign, that victims will not be lost to oblivion and that destruction will not have the final word.

This also changes how one speaks of Christ. If Jesus is no longer understood primarily as the one who saves us from an eternal torture chamber, it does not follow that he has become religiously unnecessary. It may mean that salvation itself must be understood more deeply. Salvation is not merely rescue from something God would otherwise do to us. It is rescue from death, falsehood, estrangement, the power of evil and the human capacity to destroy both ourselves and one another. It is reconciliation, healing, resurrection and the restoration of life with God and neighbour.

The cross then does not protect us from a cruel God. It reveals God entering the place of abandonment, violence and godforsakenness. Resurrection is the declaration that even there, death does not win. This does not provide us with a complete description of the fate of every human being. Nor does it authorize us to identify the lost. The proper response to judgment is not confident speculation about others, but seriousness about ourselves, hope for every person and action on behalf of those whose lives are being made unbearable now.

My concern is therefore not that the historical argument should have been withheld. It is that the scope of its conclusion needed to remain as carefully defined as the argument itself. The webinar made a serious case against eternal conscious torment. It did not establish that there is no judgment, no irreversible loss, no final unveiling of truth and nothing after death that should concern us. The lectures brought real relief where relief is needed. But relief from the fear of endless torture need not leave us with nothing. It can clear the ground for a more serious hope: not that judgment disappears, but that it is freed from cruelty; not that evil is inconsequential, but that it is overcome; not that death ends every distinction, but that life, truth and love have the final word.

A note on the constructive second half: Much of the biblical and theological thinking behind it was sharpened for me by Professor Arnold Huijgen’s recent Dutch book Inferno: De ontdekking van de hel. Huijgen is a Reformed theologian who argues that inherited ideas of hell need to be deconstructed, but he does not stop there. He then attempts a careful Christian reconstruction. One idea in particular stayed with me: Huijgen reads hell as a series of negatives of who Christ is: death rather than life, falsehood rather than truth, darkness rather than light, hunger rather than bread, and exclusion rather than communion. I mention the book because readers interested in the fuller exegetical and theological argument deserve to know where they can find it. The book is available as a Dutch e-book. Readers who do not know Dutch may be able to read it for personal study with the help of AI-assisted translation.

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Judith

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July 19, 2026 - 10:01 am

Tjalling, thank you. It was indeed a gift to me this morning. 

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Tjalling

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July 19, 2026 - 10:42 am

Thank you, Judith. That it was received as a gift is more than I could have asked for.

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Judith

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July 19, 2026 - 10:55 am

Tjalling, please forgive this but I’m wondering about you. You come across to me as too good to be true. Would you tell us a little something about you? Or have you already done that somewhere and I missed it?

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Tjalling

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July 19, 2026 - 11:26 am

Hi Judith, there is nothing to forgive. I am certainly not the One who gets to dispense forgiveness! 🙂

But since you asked: me, good? Ask my children! I still have a long way to go.

Post #163 of the thread How Did We Get Here?

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Judith

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July 19, 2026 - 11:39 am

Just found and reread. How could I have forgotten?! 

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BJH1960

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July 20, 2026 - 8:37 am

Tjalling, I just wanted to tell you how much I’ve been enjoying your contributions. 

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Tjalling

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July 20, 2026 - 9:47 am

Thank you BJH. I’m never quite sure how these posts land, or how someone like me fits into this place, so I’m very grateful you said so.

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BJH1960

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July 20, 2026 - 11:18 am

I think you fit rather well. 

Although there is a lot we disagree on, I  appreciate different perspectives being presented.

Your manner of doing so, and the respect you show towards other interlocuters, strikes me as a template.

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Tjalling

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July 20, 2026 - 11:54 am

That is generous, thank you. The disagreement is part of why I am here. I would learn very little in a room where everyone already agreed with me.

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BJH1960

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July 20, 2026 - 12:07 pm

Exactly.

There’s much we can learn by listening and then discussing instead of just being in our own echo chambers where validation comes 24/7.

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Stephen
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July 20, 2026 - 5:46 pm

Judgment need not mean a divine torture chamber or an infinite multiplication of pain. It can mean that truth is finally spoken about every human life. That what was hidden is brought into the light. That victims are not forgotten. That power cannot eternally rename cruelty as virtue. That the hungry, the stranger, the sick and the imprisoned matter more than the reputations of those who passed them by.

That’s a fine paragraph! 

All I can offer is this: if it can be done it will be we who do it.  

Christians seem to need Hell more than they need Heaven.   Why?  Because it’s easier to offer people something to run away from than it is something to run towards.   The only people who go to Hell are the ones who believe in it and they’re already there.   

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Tjalling

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July 20, 2026 - 7:51 pm

Thank you, Stephen. I am glad that paragraph reached you, and I do hear what sits behind your line about Christians needing hell.

I agree that we cannot outsource the responsibility to heaven. What I cannot quite say is: only we.

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Judith

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July 20, 2026 - 8:25 pm

Stephen, you said the only people who go to Hell are the ones who believe in it and they’re already there. Please explain what you mean by that because maybe there is indeed a Hell. Who knows? I can’t say I truly believe there is but then I sure do not want to think I’m already there. But then perhaps that’s not what you are saying.

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Porphyry

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July 20, 2026 - 8:59 pm

I believe his point is that the worst suffering possible is the anxiety of living with the constant fear of eternal conscious torment. 

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Judith

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July 20, 2026 - 9:03 pm

Thanks, Porphyry.

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Tjalling

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July 21, 2026 - 3:57 am

Judith, one thing from my post may bear repeating here.
In Jesus’ judgment sayings, we are not given a map from which we can confidently locate ourselves or anyone else. In Matthew 25, both groups are surprised by the basis of the judgment. Both ask, “Lord, when did we see you?” Neither had recognised him in the hungry, the stranger, the sick or the imprisoned. So “am I already there?” is not a question this text asks you to settle about yourself.

I would put Luke 15 beside it. There we meet a God who searches, who finds, who carries back; a father who runs while the son is still a long way off, before any explanation has been offered. And who then goes out a second time, to the elder brother standing in the yard, and pleads with him to come in. The story ends without telling us whether he did. The door is simply left open.

That is why I do not think the question is what you may conclude about yourself. It is that the one doing the judging is the one who came looking for you.

Stephen, I understood your line as Porphyry did, and taken that way it is fair: fear of eternal torment is itself a kind of hell, and the tradition has often produced exactly that. It was part of why I wrote the post.

——

And then there is one thing from my opening post that has remained unaddressed. I would genuinely like to know whether readers here think it holds.

Bart’s closing moved from “this did not come from the Hebrew Bible,” to “this did not come from Jesus,” to “this is not the original form of Christianity,” to “it doesn’t make sense,” and finally to “it almost certainly is not true.” The first two are historical findings. The last is not. Does anyone think that final step is carried by the historical argument, or is it doing different work?

And if it is doing different work, does that matter? The lectures opened with the problem of unvindicated injustice, the problem that, on Bart’s own account, produced apocalyptic hope in the first place. They closed with reassurance about punishment. I am not sure the opening problem of justice survives the closing reassurance about punishment.

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Stephen
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July 21, 2026 - 1:04 pm

Porphyry said
I believe his point is that the worst suffering possible is the anxiety of living with the constant fear of eternal conscious torment. 
  

Yes and I note the irony that the people most devoted to the reality of Hell are the ones the most convinced that they have escaped it.  

My people had this interesting doctrine we called “the age of accountability”.  Because we believed that salvation was the result of a conscious decision, i.e., being “born again”, parents were ever on the watch for that precise moment when the innocent child became liable for judgement.  There was no set “time”.  It differed from child to child.  Which meant my parents, for the best of motives, poured all that stuff about sin and damnation and repentance into my little brain as soon as I could speak. 

I remember waking up one Saturday morning when I was six years old (!), terrified that I was going to Hell.  Well that was all it took.  My Father immediately drove me over to the Pastor’s home.  There was a conversation, the details of which I don’t remember.  But at the end of it everyone seemed satisfied that I had been “saved”.  Then I was allowed to go be a little kid but of course the damage to my psyche had been done.  Those of you who grew up outside this kind of environment might wonder what a six year old had to repent of but you have to understand, in this system of thought you are not condemned by your actions but by your sin “nature”.  You are born condemned by default and lest you repent you will go to Hell. 

I loved my parents and I am sure they loved me.  They thought they were doing what was the best for me given their beliefs but surely this kind of thing qualifies as child abuse! 

Love and faith alone seldom work.  Fear always works. 

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Judith

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July 21, 2026 - 9:11 pm

Stephen, I am sure your parents dearly loved you as I loved my sons but what we do because of faith is indeed child abuse.  One of my son’s friends was caught up in the fear of being raptured before he could grow up.

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Tjalling

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July 22, 2026 - 8:44 am

Stephen, thank you for telling us this. Six years old. A child of that age should never have been made responsible for securing his own escape from eternal punishment.
It matters that your parents loved you and believed they were protecting you. It also matters that love and good intentions do not remove the burden that was placed on you. I understand why you use the word abuse.

And your last line names something true about the system you were raised in. Fear works quickly, and it can keep working long after the adults believe the crisis is over. What that system never let you find out is whether anything else might have held you without it.

Judith, the fear of being raptured before he could grow up belongs to the same world. A child should not have to experience the future itself as a threat because of what adults have taught him about God.

Edit:
Judith, the fear of being raptured before he had the chance to grow up belongs to the same world. A child should not have to fear that God may take away the future he is still longing to live.

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