Part I of this thread – There were pamphlets circulating at the time of the Jewish Revolt
How couldn’t there be pamphlets circulating at the time of the Jewish Revolt?
Content of these pamphlets wind up in the mouth of the Biblical Jesus foretelling the Tribulation?
start at 2:58 of the video
Part 2 of this thread – Reasons why the gospels were written after 99 CE
Talk back to the arguments suggesting this is true.
Has anyone read Holy Fable, Volume 2 by Robert Price?
2:58 – 4:42
Hermann Detering and Timothy Kolani argued that Mark 13 is based on a pamphlet circulated before the Roman siege.
Most authorities regard early Christianity as a fervently apocalyptic religion, intent on the imminent “Second Coming” of Christ to preside over the Last Judgment and the end of the world. Early Christian apocalypticism is evident in the Gospels, which are permeated with language taken from Daniel. The so-called Little Apocalypse, a sermon by Jesus found in Matthew (24–25) with parallels in Mark (13) and Luke (21), foretells the imminence of collective tribulation and chastisement before the coming of the “Son of Man” who will “sit upon the throne of his glory” and separate “the sheep from the goats.”
4:45 – 6:00
Detering says Matthew had the pamphlet, too. And Matthew’s use of the pamphlet is more accurate than Mark’s use of the pamphlet.
Mark’s version of the pamphlet is better connected to 132 C.E. than to 70 C.E.
What proof is there about pamphlets distributed during the Jewish Revolt telling people when such and such happens, get out of town? Then, Bob Price seems to say Matthew’s use of that pamphlet fits the Jewish Revolt better than Mark’s use of that pamphlet; BUT, there is a second pamphlet tied not to the first revolt but to the second revolt in 132.
What evidence does Detering present for this that Robert Price is convinced there were these pamphlets?
3:00 – 4:21
Mark 13 is covered on pages 88 and 89 of Robert Price’s book, Holy Fable, Vol. II
Matthew 24-25 is covered on pages 182-183, ibid
Luke 21 is covered on pages 249-250, ibid
= = =
Interesting: Bob Price says Matthew has an olivet discourse but Luke has a non-olivet discourse
“Luke omits Mark’s location of this speech atop the Mount of Olives, as he previously omitted the location of the Confession of Peter, which Mark placed at Caesarea Philippi.”
= = =
3:00 – 4:21 Price refers to Hermann Detering and Timothy Colani
Apocalyptic Imagination in the Gospel of Mark : the Literary and Theological Role of Mark 3:22-30.
| Author: | ** you do not have permission to see this link ** |
|---|---|
| Publisher: | Berlin : De Gruyter, 2012. |
= = =
Robert said
Steefen said
What proof is there about pamphlets distributed during the Jewish Revolt telling people when such and such happens, get out of town?There’s no real proof of this. It is an opinion of some scholars who try to reconstruct an earlier source used and redacted by Mark in writing his gospel. Perhaps the most important modern critical scholar to defend this theory is Rudolf Pesch (cf especially his 1976-77 two-volume commentary on Mark), but it has been advanced in various forms by many scholars. Some considered it to be based on, at least in part, the actual preaching of Jesus (esp, GR Beasley-Murray), while others consider it to be a Jewish apocalyptic teaching that was later incorporated with minor additions into the gospel of Mark but not originally of ‘Christian’ origin (Rudolf Bultmann). Other scholars (eg, Jan Lambrecht) take a more cautious approach to minimal elements of pre-Markan tradition here that are also reflected in Q (cf our earlier discussion ** you do not have permission to see this link **). Most critical scholars have moved away from trying to conduct overly optimistic or precise source- and redaction-criticism of Mark’s gospel in general or Mk 13 specifically, in part because of the subjectivity of the task and the widely divergent results of earlier scholars, instead focusing on the meaning of the Mk 13 in it’s contemporary historical and literary context. The term ‘pamphlet’ is translating the German word Flugblatt and it is also sometimes referred as the little apocalypse theory.
I thought I just read that Bultmann also followed this line of reasoning (Bultmann is not modern/recent). And you do say Bultmann does not consider it of Christian origin.
Thank you for the reply above, Robert.
You say pamphlet is translating a German word, but how probable was it that people thought if this Jewish Civil War and Jewish Rebellion against Rome got too bad, people needed to have plans one way or another if this or that happened?
= = =
Unless a first century historian (Jewish Revolt) or even a second century historian (Bar Kokhbah Revolt) specifically mentions alternative plans under these circumstances of insurrections, I may not be able to utilize the assertion.
correction above “too far into the weeds”
Anyway, Robert says no real proof which probably means no historian speaks of written war plans of escape.
Robert said
Steefen said
Well, I don’t want to go to far into the weeds about this, but a pre-Markan Jewish apocalypse? What is that? …
You say pamphlet is translating a German word, but how probable was it that people thought if this Jewish Civil War and Jewish Rebellion against Rome got too bad, people needed to have plans one way or another if this or that happened?
A pre-Markan Jewish apocalypse would be a some type of specific written expression of the generally apocalyptic view that the end of the current age was imminent and that God would soon inaugurate his kingdom on earth. It’s not primarily dependent upon a human plan of action or escape, ‘though the pious would indeed fight alongside God and his angels, but rather it would rely upon the certain hope of God’s decisive intervention in history in favor of Israel or Judea. There would be no need for escape because God would act definitively against all of the forces of evil.
Right, those who thought about a Jewish apocalypse regardless of whether or not some zealots would bring on a Jewish apocalypse by picking a fight with the empire to which Iudea belonged.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)