If we accept Dr. Ehrman’s conclusion, that Jesus was a great teacher but not God, then we also have to conclude that Jesus’s words and ideas were not divinely inspired. Where would this itinerant preacher from an isolated community have come up with such sophisticated ideas as – say – the beatitudes? Any research that shows where those ideas – turn the other cheek – may have been talked about before Jesus took them up? I will continue to google but I would appreciate any leads anyone can offer.
sackr
sackr said
If we accept Dr. Ehrman’s conclusion, that Jesus was a great teacher but not God, then we also have to conclude that Jesus’s words and ideas were not divinely inspired. Where would this itinerant preacher from an isolated community have come up with such sophisticated ideas as – say – the beatitudes? Any research that shows where those ideas – turn the other cheek – may have been talked about before Jesus took them up? I will continue to google but I would appreciate any leads anyone can offer.sackr
It’s possible to be gifted in the most extraordinary ways imaginable. Perhaps God gave Jesus the ability to understand how our flawed humanity could be ennobled by teachings that go against the way we naturally are. His teachings can make it possible to become different. As a believer myself, sometimes I do something I would not do if I were not trying to follow those teachings.
sackr said
If we accept Dr. Ehrman’s conclusion, that Jesus was a great teacher but not God, then we also have to conclude that Jesus’s words and ideas were not divinely inspired. Where would this itinerant preacher from an isolated community have come up with such sophisticated ideas as – say – the beatitudes? Any research that shows where those ideas – turn the other cheek – may have been talked about before Jesus took them up? I will continue to google but I would appreciate any leads anyone can offer.sackr
How is the meek shall inherit the earth sophisticated?
Blessed be the cheese makers
I think it was some Greek philosopher who advised trying to clear your mind of pre-existing assumptions. You are assuming that Jesus came up with the ideas in the Gospels. I think most beautiful story in the entire Bible is the story of the woman caught in adultery, and we know now it was added by some later scribe. As professor Ehrman discusses in his most recent book, there is a large gap between the real Jesus and the Gospels.
Lawyerskeptic said
I think it was some Greek philosopher who advised trying to clear your mind of pre-existing assumptions. You are assuming that Jesus came up with the ideas in the Gospels. I think most beautiful story in the entire Bible is the story of the woman caught in adultery, and we know now it was added by some later scribe. As professor Ehrman discusses in his most recent book, there is a large gap between the real Jesus and the Gospels.
There are a few attempts these days to date the gospels much earlier than the traditional dates by claiming Jesus said X and therefore. The problem here is that the sayings of Jesus or the question of what he actually said is not easily determined and certainly is not as simple as looking it up in the gospels. I think Dale Allison, for one, has given up on whether we can know the specifics about him and example like the one you cite only underscores that reality
Some of Jesus words were Jewish (many references to Jewish scripture), some were not.
I’m working on an update to the Youtube video “New Conclusions and Perspectives on Christianity (2016 Forward)” by Youtube subscriber WBFbySteefen.
There is also the video”From the First Emperor of Rome to the First Ruler of the Kingdom of Righteousness” by WBFbySteefen. That video will probably be re-recorded with a better rehearsed/performed narration. Before Jesus is given credit for “love your enemies,” Julius Caesar practiced it. This is one reason why one must go back to Julius Caesar when looking for antecedents for Jesus’s ideas.
You will miss the antecedents if you do not take a good look at the histories of Julius Caesar, King Monobazus [in the Talmud / see the book, The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy by Steefen] Prince then King Izates, Emperor Vespasian, and Emperor Titus.
Also, one must look at the Homeric Epics, The Bacchae by Euripides, and the Discourses of Dio Chrysostom. There are two threads on these forums about Dio Chrysostom. Dio speaks and so many matters that cannot be associated with Jesus however.
There in the Sun, you reach to the farthest of those
you would gather in for your Son, whom you love.
“The Hymn (or Prayer) to the Aten”
by Akhen-aten
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them…
I revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world.
They belonged to you, and you gave them to me.
…I do not pray for the world but for the ones You have given me.
The Gospel According to John 6: 44; 17: 6, 8
Before Jesus is given credit for “love your enemies,” Julius Caesar practiced it. This is one reason why one must go back to Julius Caesar when looking for antecedents for Jesus’s ideas.
A unique theory certainly but how did Jesus find out about Julius Caesar? I breathlessly await such an exposition.
Steefen said
Also, one must look at the Homeric Epics, The Bacchae by Euripides, and the Discourses of Dio Chrysostom. There are two threads on these forums about Dio Chrysostom. Dio speaks and so many matters that cannot be associated with Jesus however.
Correction: “Dio speaks on so many matters…”
Many pastors preach on
Luke6:35 love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
And then ignore other opposite teaching
Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
Tempo1936 said
Many pastors preach onLuke6:35 love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
And then ignore other opposite teaching
Luke 19:27
But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!
The original post opened the topic of what came before not opposites.
Therefore he finds greater pleasure in conferring benefits
than those benefited do in receiving them,
and in this one pleasure, he is insatiable.
The First Discourse on Kingship by Dio Chrysostom
p 15, line 23
…remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”
Acts 20: 35
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