Distinguished Professor,
Mark seems to assume that Jesus became divine at his baptism; Matthew and Luke indicate that he was divine at birth; John presents him as God eternal (Nicene Creed).
Question: So, the source for divine at resurrection is whom? The only one left after Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John is Paul.
Would you agree that the idea that Jesus became God at resurrection came from Paul? You might say no, because, I think you said, Paul thought Jesus was an angel. But in the middle of your book you say Paul said, “appointed Son of God by resurrection” (Paul wasn’t listening to the disciples when they told him God called him Son at baptism).
Steefen
= = =
Professor Ehrman
The sources are the preliterary traditions attested to by Paul (Romans 1:3-4) and Acts (13:33 etc.)
= = =
Steefen
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God,
which God promised beforehand through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to flesh,
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection
from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 1: 1-4
Remember, Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David, as proclaimed by my gospel, for which I suffer to the extent of being chained like a criminal. …
2 Timothy 2: 8
Steefen, quoting Joseph Raymond
author of Herodian Messiah: Case for Jesus as Grandson of Herod
Jesus Says He Is NOT a Son of David
Careful examination of the New Testament Gospels reveals Jesus, in his own words, rebuking the suggestion that he is a son of David at Matthew 22: 41-45, Mark 12: 35-378, and Luke 20: 41-44. Jesus relies upon Psalm 110 in these parallel passages. All three gospels record the words in nearly identical fashion. Here is Luke’s formulation.
Then Jesus said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? David himself declares in the Book of Psalms: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’
David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”
Obviously, Jesus refers to himself in the third person as [a pre-existing Christ]. The initial Lord is clearly God. Who then is the second Lord? The salient point made by Jesus in quoting Psalm 110 is that David is NOT the second lord but is subservient to this individual. Who then is this person?
There is only one logical conclusion to be drawn from reading the quoted language from Luke together with Psalm 110: Jesus identifies the second Lord in Psalm 110 as the Christ or Messiah. Further, Jesus equates himself with this individual. Jesus proclaims that the Christ does NOT descend from David. This implicitly means Jesus identifies himself as the messiah of Levi and not of Judah.
= = =
The Book of Jubilees – According to this book, Jacob took only Levi and Judah to visit his father Isaac while he lay on his deathbed, although Jacob had 12 sons. Levi held his grandfather’s right hand and Judah the left while their grandfather Isaac gave them his blessing.
He blessed Levi: shall the seed of your sons be for glory and greatness and holiness, and may God make them great unto all the ages. And they shall be judges and princes, and chiefs of all the seed of the father of you both, Jacob.
Note, that Isaac made Levi chief and judge over Judah’s descendants.
Isaac then blessed Judah: Then shall the Gentiles fear before thy face … And when you sit on the throne of honor of thy righteousness, there shall be great peace for all the seed of the sons of the beloved.
So, in The Book of Jubilees, Judah’s descendants sat on a throne but Levi’s held all real power: Levi stood first among the sons of Jacob. This is so in The Book of Jubilees, The Rule of the Community, The Damsacus Document, and the Aramaic Levi Document.
Several other apocryphal works go further than Jubilees. Texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls reference two messiahs. The Rule of the Community and the Damascus Document reference the coming of “the messiahs of Aaron and Israel.” See Qumran-Messianism: Studies on the Messianic Expectations in the Dead Sea Scrolls by James H. Charlesworth.
Aaron was a descendant of Levi. The Hasmoneans, as descendants of Levi, claimed they fulfilled the prophecies found in these messianic texts.
The final step to Levi’s kingship was taken by the Aramaic Levi Document (ALD). According to the ALD, Levi is a pious and even prophetic figure, a person beloved by God and the recipient of two divine visions. “We have magnified you over everyone,” an angelic speaker says to him. In addition to being installed as a priest, Levi is also portrayed as a sage and champion of wisdom. He says to his children that they will be “chiefs and judges and … servants … even priests and kings … your kingdom will have no end.
Scholars agree ALD is pre-Christian.
In the two-messiah formula, Levi stands above Judah (David’s tribe).
The Lord said to my Lord … You are a priest forever … David, although he wanted to build a Temple, was not a priest.
= = =
So, Paul claims Jesus was a descendant of David. He did not get that from Jesus.
We have a contradiction with Matthew and Luke: putting in a genealogy that goes back to David but including Jesus asking, How can the second Lord of David, the Christ, be a descendant of David?
Are You Going with Jesus and Mark or Paul, Matthew, and Luke about Jesus Being a Descendant of David?
Professor,
Jesus says he is not a son of David at Matthew 22: 41-45, Mark 12: 35-378, and Luke 20: 41-44 (Paul says it at Romans 1: 1-4 and 2 Timothy 2: 8 ). Jesus relies upon Psalm 110 in these parallel passages. There seems to be a contradiction with Matthew and Luke putting in a genealogy that goes back to David but including Jesus asking, How can the second Lord of David, a pre-existing Christ, be a descendant of David?
Did you find a resolution to this so this truly is not a contradiction?
Thank you,
Steefen
= = =
Prof. Ehrman
It’s never been clear to me that he is saying he is not a descendant of David; he may instead be asking how CAN he be the Son of David if he is the son of God.
Steefen
The context is criticism of scribes. Let’s look at Mark 12: 35 – 39.
(35) As Jesus was teaching in the Temple area, he said, “How do the scribes claim that the Messiah is the son of David?
(36) David himself inspired by the holy Spirit said:
“The Lord said to my lord,
‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet.'”
(37) David himself calls him ‘lord’; so how is he his son?”
The crowd heard this with delight.
Denunciation of the Scribes
(38 ) In the course of his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes who like to go around in long robes and accept greetings in the marketplaces,
(39) seats of honor in synagogues, and places of honor at banquets.
= = =
So, it seems to be an error that Jesus is saying, Scribes, you are correct, the Messiah of Judah–not the Messiah of Levi who is greater than the former–is the son of David; now, let’s see if you can tell us the explanation of the mystery of how can he be the son/descendant of David and also be a Lord over David; how can he not be in human form then but be in human form now?
Second, it would be a grave vacancy for Jesus not to fulfill the more powerful Messiah of Levi role and only fill the lesser Messiah of Judah role.
Third, the crowd heard it with delight, delighting in correcting the scribes, no?
Stephen said
I doubt anybody had the slightest idea who Jesus’ ancestors were. But the Messiah had to be a descendent of David. So after the disciples decided Jesus was the Messiah they invented these spurious genealogies.
The Messiah of Judah probably needed to be a descendant of David, not the more important Messiah of Levi.
Stephen said
I doubt anybody had the slightest idea who Jesus’ ancestors were. But the Messiah had to be a descendent of David. So after the disciples decided Jesus was the Messiah they invented these spurious genealogies.
Same thing as lying and Bart says he never, not once, accused the writers of lying.
Stephen said
I doubt anybody had the slightest idea who Jesus’ ancestors were. But the Messiah had to be a descendent of David. So after the disciples decided Jesus was the Messiah they invented these spurious genealogies.
Same thing as lying and Bart says he never, not once, accused the writers of lying.
{David calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”}
Joe and Mary had to call Him Lord, too. How bout that! He was the Son of Man, as well, wasn’t He?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)