Dale Martin
The compilation of Matthew shows Matthew, a direct disciple of Jesus, did not write the gospel of Matthew.
Matthew, a disciple of Jesus would not copy parts of Mark. He would rely on his own memory.
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There are no exorcisms in the Gospel of John.
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Matthew and Luke cleaned up Mark.
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Chapter 8 is the turning point in the gospel of Mark.
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You can find the suffering servant in the Hebrew Bible, you will not find a messiah suffering in the Hebrew Bible.
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Paul (in Galatians): No, what I saw of Jesus is what the other disciples (Peter, James, and John) saw of Jesus. I am not a junior disciple to them. We all experienced the same Jesus.
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Steefen
Oh My God. That precludes the future biographical content of the gospels. Mark, Matthew, and Luke are made impossible by Paul even before the gospels are written. Paul has already said, I didn’t see a unique, biological human being and neither did any other disciple. We all saw visions.
Prof. Dale Martin
Paul (in Galatians): No, what I saw of Jesus is what the other disciples (Peter, James, and John) saw of Jesus. I am not a junior disciple to them. We all experienced the same Jesus.
Steefen
Galatians and 2 Corinthians.
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But as for the highly esteemed–whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism–those leaders added nothing to me.
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And recognizing the grace that I had been given, James, Cephas, and John–those reputed to be pillars–gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.
2 Corinthians 11:5
I consider myself in no way inferior to those “super-apostles.”
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
Neither your vision of Jesus, nor the super-apostles taught you the Lord’s Prayer.
Jesus only taught it on the Mount/Plain. The crowds were not instructed to take it back to their synagogues and make it a Jewish prayer?
Jesus did not pray his prayer at any of his trials?
The Lord’s Prayer must have been a later invention by the gospel writers.
Prof. Ehrman,
Neither Paul’s vision of Jesus, nor the super-apostles taught Paul the Lord’s Prayer.
Jesus only taught it on the Mount/Plain. The crowds were not instructed to take it back to their synagogues and make it a Jewish prayer.
Jesus did not pray his prayer at any of his trials?
Jesus did not pray the Lord’s Prayer on the cross.
James, the brother of Jesus, did not pray the Lord’s Prayer when he was attacked and died or at any other time.
Prof. Dale Martin (talking about, I presume Gal. 2: 6 and 9 and 2 Cor. 11: 5)
Paul (in Galatians): What I saw of Jesus is what the other disciples (Peter, James, and John) saw of Jesus. I am not a junior disciple to them. We all experienced the same Jesus.
Steve Campbell
So, Paul is saying there was no historical Jesus. The only way to experience Jesus on earth is through vision.
QUESTION: Could the Lord’s Prayer have been a later invention by gospel writers? There was no physical Jesus. There only was a real Jesus from God intervening in Nature solely by vision. There was no oral tradition of a physical Jesus. There was Enoch, the Son of Man, Paul’s vision and Paul’s gospel of God and the fleshing out of Jesus by the Gospel authors who added a little bit of Moses, a little bit of David/Solomon, and a little bit of the suffering servant (Dale Martin has said, no where in the Hebrew Bible is there a suffering messiah, there is only a suffering servant). I say, there were no disciples meeting at the Temple and they were not having the Lord’s Supper Holy Communion remembrances at the Temple, then on High Holidays, also making their Temple sacrifices. Jesus as sacrifice is plausible after the Temple is gone, AD70.
200-word Edited Version:
Prof. Ehrman,
Neither Paul’s vision of Jesus, nor the super-apostles taught Paul the Lord’s Prayer.
Prof. Dale Martin (talking about, I presume Gal. 2: 6 and 9 and 2 Cor. 11: 5) said:
What Paul saw of Jesus is what the other disciples (Peter, James, and John) saw of Jesus. Paul’s position is: I am not a junior disciple to them. We all experienced the same Jesus.
Steve Campbell
So, Paul is saying there was no historical Jesus. The only way to experience Jesus on earth is through vision.
QUESTION: Could the Lord’s Prayer have been a later invention by gospel writers?
There was a real Jesus from God intervening in Nature solely by vision. There was Enoch, the Son of Man, Paul’s vision and Paul’s gospel of God and the fleshing out of Jesus by Gospel authors who added Moses, David/Solomon, and the suffering servant (Dale Martin: no where in the Hebrew Bible is there a suffering messiah, there is only a suffering servant). I say, there were no disciples meeting at the Temple having their Lord’s Supper remembrances at the Temple, then on High Holidays, also making their Temple sacrifices. Jesus as sacrifice is plausible after the Temple is gone, AD70.
In Matthew, Jesus found a church: You, Peter, are the rock and upon this rock, I will found/build my church. Matthew 16: 16-18
By the Kingdom of God/Heaven/Righteousness, Jesus did not mean church.
I will found my church, I will build my church.
So, Matthew 16: 16-18 is anachronistic and does not flow into the Biblical Jesus existed and is historical basket.
Paul Williams
The I am statements in John are anachronistic, you say in your book, Dale. [for example, John 8:58, before Abraham was born, I am!]
Steefen
Gospel of Matthew made Jesus a new Moses. Gospel of John goes back to the Moses story and make Jesus God with that utterance.
Paul Williams
That is a later Christological development: a Jesus of the late 20s would not have done that.
Prof. Dale Martin
Gospel of John is equating the pre-crucified, pre-death, pre-resurrected Jesus with the high God.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Yes, that is anachronistic. With the 1 Enoch and 2 Enoch, Enoch is made an angel by the Ancient of Days, Enoch is not a pre-existing God.
Prof. Dale Martin
Josephus mentions messianic pretenders but they never equate themselves the high God, gospel of John does this with Jesus.
Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke do not do this either. They go as far as saying Jesus is the high God’s Son.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Anachronism appears in the index of Dale’s book, New Testament History and Literature, on page 326 which would be the Biblical Interpretation section of his book, Chapter 22. Premodern Biblical Interpretation.
Steefen said
200-word Edited Version:Prof. Ehrman,
Neither Paul’s vision of Jesus, nor the super-apostles taught Paul the Lord’s Prayer.
Prof. Dale Martin (talking about, I presume Gal. 2: 6 and 9 and 2 Cor. 11: 5) said:
What Paul saw of Jesus is what the other disciples (Peter, James, and John) saw of Jesus. Paul’s position is: I am not a junior disciple to them. We all experienced the same Jesus.
Steve Campbell
So, Paul is saying there was no historical Jesus. The only way to experience Jesus on earth is through vision.
QUESTION: Could the Lord’s Prayer have been a later invention by gospel writers?
There was a real Jesus from God intervening in Nature solely by vision. There was Enoch, the Son of Man, Paul’s vision and Paul’s gospel of God and the fleshing out of Jesus by Gospel authors who added Moses, David/Solomon, and the suffering servant (Dale Martin: no where in the Hebrew Bible is there a suffering messiah, there is only a suffering servant). I say, there were no disciples meeting at the Temple having their Lord’s Supper remembrances at the Temple, then on High Holidays, also making their Temple sacrifices. Jesus as sacrifice is plausible after the Temple is gone, AD70.
Bart D.E.
The Lord’s prayer comes to us from Q.
It coincides well with Jesus’ views otherwise. At least in part, it is usually considered authentic.
It is possible that the Lord’s Prayer is a later invention by gospel writers.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
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Robert