Luke 18:11 “Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.”
Luke 22:37 “what is written must be fulfilled in me, ‘for he was numbered with the transgressors‘. for all things about me are reaching fulfillment”
Luke wants his reader to find that passage in the OT and see that everything written in that passage is being fulfilled in Jesus.
Isaiah 53:12 “he was numbered with the transgressors for he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors”
Luke preaches Jesus died for sins.
Paul Williams
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45
This verse is omitted in Luke. … It appears Luke does not have this doctrine.
Even in Acts, this is omitted.
Prof. Dale Martin
That is quite correct.
Paul Williams
Then how are people saved in Luke and Acts?
Prof. Dale Martin
Were there anti-atonement forms of Judaism at that time?
In Judaism, there are parts of the Hebrew Bible that do not emphasize atonement.
They will emphasize the prophet, the holy man.
Paul Williams
Also, there is a Temple strand and an anti-Temple strand.
In the New Testament, there is the anti-Temple position of the Greek, Stephen before he is martyred.
Prof. Dale Martin
Luke and Acts shows a very pious, Temple-observant Jesus.
Paul also with his vows and paying for others to fulfill their vows.
Paul Williams
So, instead of human sacrifice, specifically, the sacrifice of Jesus as atonement, Luke and Acts puts repentance forward for salvation.
Prof. Dale Martin
It departs from much of Christianity because how do you have Christianity without atonement?
Paul Williams
Look at how the gospel of Luke ends. Jesus meets two men on the road to Emmaus who sums up what Jesus was (Luke 24: 19 and Acts 2:22):
He was a prophet, powerful in speech and action before God and all the people.
We hoped he was the one who would redeem Israel, but he wasn’t.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Redeem makes me think of the Samaritan Redeemer given the death penalty by Pilate.
Prof. Dale Martin
A good writer will give you signals at the beginning and at the end of a book.
Paul Williams
An argument against your position of a non-atonement Jesus is the story of the Last Supper, of course.
Luke 22:20: …He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.”
Prof. Dale Martin
“For you” does not have to mean atonement. You cannot just dump all of atonement theology into that phrase.
Paul Williams
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
This is missing from Luke who used Mark when writing his gospel.
So why did Jesus die on the cross for Luke?
And, for Mark, Jesus was the Son of God or a Son of God; but, Luke switches that to Jesus was an innocent man.
Prof. Martin
This tells you about Luke’s Christology. Jesus is a great prophet and healer. That is a very important change Luke makes to Mark.
So, no, a Gentile does not declare Jesus is a Son of God.
= = =
pick up at 37:49/53:18
brenmcg,
If Jesus were numbered with the transgressors, then he needed to be punished. That is not atonement.
If Jesus were a leader of transgressors, then he needed to be punished. That is not atonement.
Second, all sins need not be punished by capital punishment.
Third, you have to address the argument in the video presentation in your attempt to argue against the video presentation–if you want to be more persuasive in this discussion about the video presentation.
31mins
Paul Williams “what was the point or significance for Luke of Jesus’ death on the cross do you think”
Dale Martin – no reason given.
Its the absolute essential feature of christianity – a reason must be given for the messiah dying on a cross. What’s Luke’s?
Luke 9:22 “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
Luke 9:34-35 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.”
The point in Luke is that nobody understood before the crucifixion what the prophecy was supposed to be. It was only afterward, going through the scriptures that prophecies of the suffering messiah were found.
Luke tells his readers where to look – he wants them to read it for themselves in the scriptures. No other explanation is ever given for they the messiah must be killed than Isaiah 53.
“If Jesus were numbered with the transgressors, then he needed to be punished. That is not atonement.”
He was unjustly numbered with the transgressors, though he himself was “truly a righteous man”.
brenmcg
The point in Luke is that nobody understood before the crucifixion what the prophecy was supposed to be. It was only afterward, going through the scriptures that prophecies of the suffering messiah were found.
Steefen, Argumentation Specialist
A professor from Yale says you can go through the Hebrew Bible and never find suffering messiah. You only find suffering servant.
brenmcg
Paul Williams “what was the point or significance for Luke of Jesus’ death on the cross do you think”
Dale Martin – no reason given.
Steefen
The point of Jesus’ death on the cross is the point of the Samaritan Redeemer’s death by Roman capital punishment. If you become too much of a trouble maker, you are put to death.
From age 12 to age 30, Jesus did not know there were moneychangers at the High Holy Festivals? Diplomacy or Violence? Jesus displayed violence. He got punished. He was justly numbered with the transgressors.
What? Jesus couldn’t register a complaint properly?
Second, Jesus knew what Yom Kippur was but in Mark, Matthew, and John he is deluded into thinking Yom Kippur needs an addendum or needs to be replaced with human sacrifice. That leads Jews, his disciples, and anyone else astray. Jesus was justly numbered as a transgressor. Jews had settled on a God who had a ram in the bush for centuries but now Jesus wants to come along and change all that?
I’d say, Jesus was made up, with that, by gospel writers after the Temple was destroyed.
Steefen said
Steefen, Argumentation SpecialistA professor from Yale says you can go through the Hebrew Bible and never find suffering messiah. You only find suffering servant.
That may or may not be true – but Luke believes its about the suffering messiah and Luke’s opinions are the subject of the discussion.
I’d say, Jesus was made up, with that, by gospel writers after the Temple was destroyed.
One of the better arguments for Jesus being historical is that no one was expecting a suffering and dying messiah, that it was an offensive concept at the time, and that therefore the gospels are best understood as responses to a historical event.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert