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"but some doubted"
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jakejones

223 Posts
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41
September 8, 2022 - 3:01 am

If you accept that Matthew is an apologist for the resurrection, the better question would be why mention “serious and persistent” doubts without an argument to rebut them? 

 

there was a group that didnt have “serious and persistent” doubts so he would use them to trump the group that did? 

if a group of disciples doubted it was jesus and thought it was an imposter and this was serious and persistent doubt, why would matthew who needs the ressurection and is an apologist for the ressurection address the more difficult problems? 

 

 

 

 

That is bad apologist technique. You only mention them because they are neither “serious” nor “persistent.”

 
 
 
how do you know? have you studied about  apologetic techniques in time of writing of the gospel of matthew? 
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JAS

948 Posts
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42
September 8, 2022 - 6:02 am

At this point, Jakejones, you are just making unreasonable demands for a view that you do not share, and apparently cannot see. You do not need to agree, and I do not see a need to try further to show you.

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Robert
7123 Posts
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43
September 8, 2022 - 7:46 am
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wrouthier

12 Posts
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44
September 8, 2022 - 12:41 pm

The event of someone appearing after the death to a loved one, or loved ones, is common in human history. many people experience it. My own mother had such an appearance happen after my father died, and he spoke to her and she touched him and he felt solid. Now, you would have to know my mother to realize how unlike her it was to admit to anything like this – she was pragmatic, hated religious preaching and histrionics, and was the last person to put any validity to ghosts, ESP, or anything of the like. But there he was and she saw him. 

Now, does that mean my father was resurrected from his grave? I don’t think the apostles necessarily had that notion. That’s a Pauline notion that came later. In any case, speculating over who believed what seems irrelevant to me. Those inclusions in Mark and the other Gospels were made significantly after the fact. Peter and James are supposed to have acknowledged the resurrection, but are those their actual beliefs? We have no way of knowing. I think the idea that any of the apostles believed in a resurrected Jesus is highly suspect. The resurrected Jesus is the main Pauline idea. Everything else falls second to it for Paul. Peter and James were opposed to Paul’s teaching, and so we have to suspect that, whatever words have been inserted into the Letters or Gospels, Peter, James and the Jerusalem church began preaching Jesus as a wise man with an apocalyptic message and a spiritual code of how to live, how to be in the moment of the “life breath”, and how to honor God, the Jewish God. The resurrected Jesus was Paul’s God.  

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Stephen
4602 Posts
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September 8, 2022 - 4:59 pm

I think the idea that any of the apostles believed in a resurrected Jesus is highly suspect. The resurrected Jesus is the main Pauline idea. Everything else falls second to it for Paul. Peter and James were opposed to Paul’s teaching, and so we have to suspect that, whatever words have been inserted into the Letters or Gospels, Peter, James and the Jerusalem church began preaching Jesus as a wise man with an apocalyptic message and a spiritual code of how to live, how to be in the moment of the “life breath”, and how to honor God, the Jewish God. The resurrected Jesus was Paul’s God.  

Well Paul was the one who equated his own experience of the risen Jesus with that of the disciples.  In some instances Paul is in conflict with them but he never denies their witness or their authority.  Paul claims to be equal to them.  The “bereavement hallucination” hypothesis is interesting but hardly conclusive.  I’ve had dreams of departed love ones and even of Jesus myself and in an ancient context they would qualify as perfectly valid resurrection appearances.  What would be more natural than for some of Jesus’ close followers to dream about him after his death?   

It appears that the earliest form of resurrection belief was as an apotheosis.  Jesus was exalted to heaven by God.  Any subsequent appearances would have been visionary.  What came later was the idea of Jesus being resuscitated.  Paul believed in a bodily resurrection but he had his age’s concept of the body, sarx, pysche and pneuma, imperfectly translated as flesh, soul and spirit.  

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wrouthier

12 Posts
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46
September 8, 2022 - 7:20 pm

Well Paul was the one who equated his own experience of the risen Jesus with that of the disciples.  In some instances Paul is in conflict with them but he never denies their witness or their authority.  Paul claims to be equal to them.  The “bereavement hallucination” hypothesis is interesting but hardly conclusive.  I’ve had dreams of departed love ones and even of Jesus myself and in an ancient context they would qualify as perfectly valid resurrection appearances.  What would be more natural than for some of Jesus’ close followers to dream about him after his death?   

 

But are we to believe Paul on that? He’s telling his followers that the apostles agree with him, with followers who have no way to confirm that, with the center of the Petrine church in Jerusalem. Could that have been one of the issues Peter had with Paul? There’s no documentation during Paul’s life that says Peter believed in the resurrection. That comes later in the synoptics, which were hugely influenced by the writings of Paul, the sequence of which is largely accepted in modern scholarship. Paul wasn’t referring to the Gospels, they didn’t exist. It’s the other way around. 

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Stephen
4602 Posts
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47
September 8, 2022 - 10:36 pm

But are we to believe Paul on that? He’s telling his followers that the apostles agree with him, with followers who have no way to confirm that, with the center of the Petrine church in Jerusalem.

No just the opposite. Paul is saying he agrees with them.  Paul is forced to acknowledge the disciples’ authority and trail after them to a degree even though he has clear conflicts with them.  Why would Paul tell a lie that puts himself in that position?  If Paul was lying he would either make them all one big happy family (like Luke does in Acts) or he would make himself the authority.  Paul is always touting his own status but he can’t say the disciples full of sh*t.  He can’t!  They were the ones who knew Jesus personally. 

The relationship between Paul and the disciples is one of the most interesting parts of the whole thing.  I wish we knew what they really thought of him.

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JAS

948 Posts
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48
September 9, 2022 - 9:13 am

The list of things we “wish we really knew” is a very long one.

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jakejones

223 Posts
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49
September 9, 2022 - 1:56 pm

After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. (Mark 16:12-13)

 

does “another form” imply somebody who looks completely different? 

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Blackwell

181 Posts
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50
October 11, 2022 - 2:14 pm

What needs to be explained is how the end of Matthew’s gospel came to be written without a prior assumption that it is historically accurate.

This story is unique to this gospel and details are therefore unreliable. It happened in Galilee, after reported appearances in Jerusalem had already convinced the disciples of Jesus’s resurrection. Jesus’s words were made up by the author, not recorded at the time. It is possible, even probable, that some of the disciples doubted the appearance because, unknown to Matthew, they were not present when it occurred. To make a satisfactory conclusion to his gospel, Matthew needed to have all the disciples together.

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