To bring the discussion back to my original point, Prof. Ehrman said “I would like to know a single case in history where somebody was hanged and he died by going headfirst and his guts opened up”.

My answer would be “i don’t need to find a single case in history of someone who was hanged and fell headfirst, because that’s not what happened to Judas. The text says that Judas fell face down“. To me, that’s an important difference. It’s almost impossible for a corpse falling off a noose to fall head down first. Maybe if the corpse is falling from very high it is possible. But not from a short distance. On the other hand, it’s very plausible for a corpse to fall off a noose (after decomposing) and to be found face down. These are two totally different stories and they are based on how one translates the Greek word πρηνἠς.

As far as the rest of the story (money, plot bought etc.) i make no claims that i can reconcile the details. But this is outside the scope of the point i wanted to make. My point is that due to a mistranslation, a wrong question was asked that cannot have a plausible answer, for this specific situation of falling headlong vs face down.

However, the rest of the points mentioned are valid and i’d be interested to pursue them in a different thread.

Porphyry said:
Let me say it this way: ‘headfirst’ or ‘headlong’ is a perfectly good translation if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide.

hmmm interesting… When you say ‘headfirst’ is good “if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide” what do you mean?

As opposed to what? An imaginary suicide? Would describing a different type of suicide justify translating the same word differently?

Porphyry said:
‘headfirst’ or ‘headlong’ is a perfectly good translation if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide. As opposed to Luke randomly describing how Judas’s body fell apart weeks after he died.

OK, thanks. So, πρηνής is a perfectly good translation if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide.

How would you translate the word πρηνής in the second case above where Luke was describing how Judas’s body fell apart weeks after he died?

I can tell you my answer: the same in both cases. Πρηνής means something or someone laying down horizontally face down. Just like ὕπτιος means something or someone laying down horizontally face up. That’s what it meant for 2000 years or more, and that’s how i’d use it in both cases above.

Porphyry said:
If someone hurls himself off a high point face down, I would describe that as throwing himself headlong.

I appreciate your answer, but i wasn’t asking how you would describe it. I was asking how you’d translate the same word, πρηνής, under two different circumstances that you brought up.

Describing and translating are two different things. The Greek language is rich. Like i indicated above, there is a single word that describes something or someone laying down horizontally face down (πρηνής). There is also a single word to describe something or someone laying down horizontally face up (ὕπτιος). If the Greek author wanted to describe something other than the very precise word he used, he would do so.

So the issue here is not what you’d describe it in English today given those circumstances, the issue is how you’d translate the Greek word that the author chose to use (among the plethora of Greek words at his disposal).

So, again, you said

Porphyry said:
‘headfirst’ or ‘headlong’ is a perfectly good translation if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide. As opposed to Luke randomly describing how Judas’s body fell apart weeks after he died.

How would you translate the word πρηνής in the second case above where Luke was describing how Judas’s body fell apart weeks after he died?

Thank you, Porphyry. So, first you said you’d translate the same word under different conditions, you provided the different conditions, then i asked how you’d translate it, and when i pressed on it you explained the difference between literal and dynamic equivalence.

It’s not like i was asking you to give an opinion on someone else’s response, this is what you said, which i found highly problematic. But OK, be that as it may, i will leave that alone since you cannot provide different translations of the word πρηνής under the two circumstances you brought up as having a direct effect on the translation of this same word.

I will concentrate not on two circumstances, but one.

Porphyry said:
‘headfirst’ or ‘headlong’ is a perfectly good translation if we agree that Luke is describing Judas’s actual suicide.

Considering the following points:

1. LS has it as a second translation, first is ‘face down’
2. Greek speaking dictionaries of Ancient Greek do not have ‘headfirst’ at all in their translation of this word into Modern Greek
3. The first translation in LS agrees with Greek speaking consensus
4. Two independent scholars (see references in my first post) who could literally jump into a time machine and have a highly literate conversation with a koine speaker, agree that the translation should not be ‘headlong’ but ‘face down’
5. The same word is now in common use in the Greek language and it means exactly the same as it meant for the last 2000 years

How do you justify that the translation of word πρηνής as ‘headfirst’ or ‘headlong’ is a perfectly good translation as it exists now in all English translations?

Porphyry said:
I feel like we are talking past each other, but I don’t know what the issue is.

Well, the issue is that you disagreed with my proposed translation, but when asked what you would translate πρηνής instead, you said it depends on the situation. I asked you to give me some situations, which you did, and then i asked you to translate πρηνής under these two different situations you provided. You couldn’t. Then i concentrated on one of the two situations, and you still couldn’t provide a justification of one translation (the one you said is perfectly good) over another.

Now, let me try to explain why the following statement is wrong.

Porphyry said:
If someone throws himself off a high place such that he falls face down (which i take to be the most obvious interpretation of what luke here says), in English I would describe that as throwing himself headlong.

This is the translator forcing their (anachronistic?) preconceptions onto the ancient author.

This is not about you, the translator, describing what you think the ancient author should have said, based on your assessment of the story. A translator translates the word as is, given some reasonable leeway allowable by the specific word and situation. The difference between a corpse falling head first, feet up, and falling so that its final position is face down, is not within that leeway, it is two different opinions forced onto the author that is not around to defend their writing. The translator should not choose and pick words that fit their preconception of what the ancient author should have said.

What you said above, could be exemplified as follows: An ancient author uses the word ‘blue’ to describe something. Me, a 21st century American, feels that ‘blue’ is not suitable for that thing the author intended to describe, so i translate it ‘green’. Mind you, the author had 10 words that mean different shades of blue and he chose the 8th. The language i’m translating to, has one word for blue, one word for green, but i translate as green.

This is what i understand when you say “i take to be the most obvious interpretation of what luke here says” and “in English I would describe that as”. A translator is not a commentator. The authors voice has to be allowed to come through, lightly colored with the translators limited options. The difference between ‘headfirst’ and ‘face down’ is way outside these limits, to the point that lead acclaimed scholars like Bart and Williams astray, asking the wrong questions and having no answers to the wrong question.

Anyway, it does seem that we are talking past each other, so i will leave it at that. I do want to say that i made every effort possible to be polite and courteous. I did find, however, comments about Judas’ will and who will inherit his hand uncharitable and unwarranted.

Porphyry said:
Or closer to home, would you always translate ‘genomenos’ as ‘fell’?

Of course, not. Because γενόμενος means ‘he became’. And πρηνής γενόμενος means ‘he became prone’. Why would anyone translate it as ‘fell’?

Porphyry said:
Okay: “He became himself face down”. You like that?

Of course, not. That’s wrong English.

I’m starting to feel the questions are not serious at this point…