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Did the authors of the gospels intend to write history
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JAS

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September 3, 2022 - 12:26 pm

One can always hope, but hope is not proof. I suspect that the main reason it is interesting is precisely that we cannot (or have not) solved the question. If it could be solved, all we would have left would be arguments over the theological aspects.

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Stephen
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September 4, 2022 - 6:35 pm

A lot of interesting logical points friends but you’re thinking like you live in the 21st century.  These ancient writers believed.  They believed.   They lived in a world in which dreams were portents and men became divine.   I think the writers thought they were telling the truth.  But the truth was a bit funkier back then. 

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JAS

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September 4, 2022 - 7:15 pm

Stephen said
A lot of interesting logical points friends but you’re thinking like you live in the 21st century.  These ancient writers believed.  They believed.   They lived in a world in which dreams were portents and men became divine.   I think the writers thought they were telling the truth.  But the truth was a bit funkier back then. 

  

I don’t disagree with the first part of this, but the second? How much stranger can truth be than today, where there are people who think that Donald Trump is the savior of the country, and others that he is trying to kill it. I happen to be inclined to the latter position, but what do we say of people who believe the former?

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CEJ

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September 4, 2022 - 7:45 pm

JAS said

Stephen said

A lot of interesting logical points friends but you’re thinking like you live in the 21st century.  These ancient writers believed.  They believed.   They lived in a world in which dreams were portents and men became divine.   I think the writers thought they were telling the truth.  But the truth was a bit funkier back then. 

  

I don’t disagree with the first part of this, but the second? How much stranger can truth be than today, where there are people who think that Donald Trump is the savior of the country, and others that he is trying to kill it. I happen to be inclined to the latter position, but what do we say of people who believe the former?

  

Put down the paint thinner and back away slowly?

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Stephen
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September 4, 2022 - 7:55 pm

JAS said

Stephen said

A lot of interesting logical points friends but you’re thinking like you live in the 21st century.  These ancient writers believed.  They believed.   They lived in a world in which dreams were portents and men became divine.   I think the writers thought they were telling the truth.  But the truth was a bit funkier back then. 

  

I don’t disagree with the first part of this, but the second? How much stranger can truth be than today, where there are people who think that Donald Trump is the savior of the country, and others that he is trying to kill it. I happen to be inclined to the latter position, but what do we say of people who believe the former?

  

I don’t think that’s really analogous.  It would be more like if somebody thought Donald Trump was the incarnation of a demonic spirit.  

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JAS

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September 4, 2022 - 8:08 pm

Stephen said

I don’t think that’s really analogous.  It would be more like if somebody thought Donald Trump was the incarnation of a demonic spirit. 

 

Well, there are quite a few people who think that he was selected by God to take out the international cabal of cannibalisitic half-reptile hybrid pedophiles. He has managed to skate on so many patently illegal schemes that I am beginning to think that he has signed some sort of demonic pact. (I am hoping that pact may be approaching its expiration date.)

But my larger point is that what passes for truth is often a very peculiar thing, and we are suffering from an illusion if we think that we have grown beyond that sort of thing.

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Stephen
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September 4, 2022 - 11:01 pm

How much stranger can truth be than today, where there are people who think that Donald Trump is the savior of the country, and others that he is trying to kill it. 

Quite a bit actually.  In the early centuries of the common era it was standard opinion among intellectuals that the stars were living beings.  

Well, there are quite a few people who think that he was selected by God to take out the international cabal of cannibalisitic half-reptile hybrid pedophiles.

I doubt that there are many of those.  I think most people are like my family in Georgia who are very religious one issue voters.  The Republicans are against abortion rights.  My family supports the Republicans because they are against abortion rights.  That’s the extent of the thought in it.   They don’t know anything about Trump except he leads the Republicans who are against abortion rights.  (Of course they’ve absorbed the idea by osmosis that he is a successful billionaire who knows how things really work and stood up to the system.)   The problem is not that Americans are demented.  It’s that they’re ignorant.  Willfully so.  

But my larger point is that what passes for truth is often a very peculiar thing, and we are suffering from an illusion if we think that we have grown beyond that sort of thing.

We have advanced over the ancients in that we have a lot better idea than they did of what it is we don’t know.  

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JAS

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September 5, 2022 - 10:12 am

Stephen said

…  In the early centuries of the common era it was standard opinion among intellectuals that the stars were living beings. 

And lots of people think alien abduction is a real thing. If we want to limit ourselves to irrational beliefs in intellectuals, I offer many of the basic tenents of humanism.

. . .  The problem is not that Americans are demented.  It’s that they’re ignorant.  Willfully so.   

In ultimate effect, there is no distinction of importance.

. . . We have advanced over the ancients in that we have a lot better idea than they did of what it is we don’t know.  

I would disagree strongly about this proposition. Much like teenagers, every age thinks it knows and understands a lot more than it really does.

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TTHorne56

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September 5, 2022 - 12:30 pm

JAS said

Stephen said

…  In the early centuries of the common era it was standard opinion among intellectuals that the stars were living beings. 

And lots of people think alien abduction is a real thing. If we want to limit ourselves to irrational beliefs in intellectuals, I offer many of the basic tenents of humanism.

. . .  The problem is not that Americans are demented.  It’s that they’re ignorant.  Willfully so.   

In ultimate effect, there is no distinction of importance.

. . . We have advanced over the ancients in that we have a lot better idea than they did of what it is we don’t know.  

I would disagree strongly about this proposition. Much like teenagers, every age thinks it knows and understands a lot more than it really does.

  

According to WikiPedia:

“Humanism” is a ** you do not have permission to see this link **. It considers human beings as the starting point for serious moral and philosophical inquiry.

The meaning of the term “humanism” has changed according to the successive intellectual movements that have identified with it. Generally, the term refers to a focus on human well-being and advocates for human freedom, autonomy, and progress. It views humanity as responsible for the promotion and development of individuals, espouses the equal and inherent dignity of all human beings, and emphasizes a concern for humans in relation to the world.

Starting in the 20th century, humanist movements have typically been ** you do not have permission to see this link **. Humans, according to humanists, can shape their own values, and live good and meaningful lives.”

(Bold and italicized portion is 2nd paragraph added)

I assume you are claiming that the general tenets of humanism, even though there are differences in humanist movements, are irrational.  If you would be so kind, please let us know which of the basic tenets you find to be irrational (which I interpret to be not logical) and why you think so.

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JAS

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September 5, 2022 - 12:42 pm

TTHorne56 said

I assume you are claiming that the general tenets of humanism, even though there are differences in humanist movements, are irrational.  If you would be so kind, please let us know which of the basic tenets you find to be irrational (which I interpret to be not logical) and why you think so.

  

That people, in general, are basically “good” or can be motivated beyond their own selfish interests (again, in a general, collective sense, as there are, of course, individual examples). My evidence is history as well as current news. (A second example would be that people, again generally, essentially take actions based on rational or logically worked out positions, and thus can be persuaded by such means.)

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TTHorne56

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September 5, 2022 - 1:08 pm

There is absolutely nothing in any theory of humanism that assumes people are basically good.  It does advocate for people thinking in more of a collective way in a general sense, and for people to act rationally toward not only collective but also personal interests.  Think of enlightened self interest in people’s personal lives.  It is propositional, and an in many ways inspirational, not descriptive of the way things are now or have been historically.

The argument is based on the general premises that there is no deity which we can know, and therefore no basis for some external basis for human morality.   The question then becomes how do humans act.  Do you reject the premises?  Do you disagree with the resulting question?  Or do you just not like the answer?

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JAS

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September 5, 2022 - 1:19 pm

TTHorne56 said
 

There is absolutely nothing in any theory of humanism that assumes people are basically good.  It does advocate for people thinking in more of a collective way in a general sense, and for people to act rationally toward not only collective but also personal interests.  Think of enlightened self interest in people’s personal lives.  It is propositional, and an in many ways inspirational, not descriptive of the way things are now or have been historically.

 

If that is not functionally a working definition of “goodness,” I don’t know that I could offer a better one. And it is “not descriptive of the way things are now or have been historically” because it is not true.

TTHorne56 said

The argument is based on the general premises that there is no deity which we can know, and therefore no basis for some external basis for human morality.   The question then becomes how do humans act.  Do you reject the premises?  Do you disagree with the resulting question?  Or do you just not like the answer?

  

Actually, that would be secularism, or atheism, which tends to embrace the label of humanism for the lack of anything else, especially anything more hopeful than nihilism. I think humans need a special motive to take us out of our own perceived immediate self-interests, and I think that thing cannot really be rational. I prefer the idea of it being non-rational, rather than irrational. If religion can grant such a motivation, I will take it (even if it ultimately is not true). If atheism has something better to offer, I will consider that, but I haven’t seen it so far.

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JAS

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September 5, 2022 - 1:54 pm

When pressed to adopt a label, I like to say that I am a Presbyterian with doubts. (I stopped attending regular churches because it turns out that having doubts is a serious problem in such a context, often seen as being even worse than being an atheist. True believers can just outright dismiss atheism, but doubts can be contagious unless they remain totally hidden.) When I attend church, it is a local Unitarian Universalist church (which offers a pre-built community, and, being made up of people, has its own virtues and problems). Most members of the church proudly identify as Humanists, so it is not as if this topic is a new revelation to me.

There is a reason I am a scholar about Edgar Allan Poe, and not, for example, Emerson (aside from the fact that Emerson never wrote anything even half as entertaining as “The Cask of Amontillado” or “The Masque of the Red Death”). Beyond mere evil, Poe saw in humanity a strong element of what he called “perversity,” a tendency not only to act in selfish ways regardless of the consequences on others, but also sometimes in ways that actual cause harm to ourselves, and sometimes even knowing that it will do so. I think at best, most people are only circumstantially good, that is most of us are willing to stay out of situations that do not directly seem to offer us a direct cost or benefit, and we vaguely hope for a society that leans in a direction that might ultimately hold benefits for us at some future time, which probably recommends some sense of society and stability over chaos and having to personally fight for everything we want.

Poe’s ideas on Humanism may be summarized by two quotes:

“I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity.” (Letter from Poe to James Russell Lowell, July 2, 1844)

and

“The nose of a mob is its imagination. By this, at any time, it can be quietly led” (from “Marginalia,” June 1849)

Poe had no great faith in democracy, because he has no great confidence in humanity. (He may or may not ultimately be proven wrong there, although one must admit that our democracy has certainly been fraught with problems and will presumably continue to do so, assuming that it survives.) The transcendentalists rejected Poe’s views as too pessimistic, but so far Poe has the last laugh.

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TTHorne56

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September 5, 2022 - 1:59 pm

You didn’t engage either part of the premise – (1) that there is no deity that we can know, or (2) there is therefore no external basis for a moral system.  You just don’t like the humanist proposal because you don’t think humans can manage it.  You may be right about that.  We constantly see-saw between democratic aspirations and more totalitarian tendencies, at least in modern times.  There are apparently evolutionary tendencies for both dominance and cooperation and those can conflict.

That said, I totally reject the idea that we have to put up with an imposed irrational moral system because “people need it.”  I hear people say that there has to be an afterlife with ultimate rewards and punishments just because they can’t stand the idea that there is no ultimate justice in the universe.  People can say they need this or that to satisfy those kinds of needs, to provide an ultimate purpose for their lives.  There is really only one answer to those kinds of arguments:  just because you think you need it doesn’t means that it’s there.  You can dislike the answer or find it unsatisfying, but come up with a better one that doesn’t engage is some sort of special pleading.

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JAS

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September 5, 2022 - 2:08 pm

I do not accept the premise as stated. Whether or not there is a morality imposed by a deity, I think that there has to be some external element. Society will impose many actions seen as “moral” but formal laws and informal norms. Because we live in a world that is heavily influenced by religion, it is not really possible to imagine what we would have entirely without it. Even if religion in general would vanish tomorrow, society would still inherit a world that was created with it, and some degree of its influence would continue for some period of time afterwards. What would a world based on atheism look like? Heaven only knows.

I would agree that it is demonstrably untrue that everything seems to be controlled and determined by a benevolent deity who actively pursues what is best for us and seeks a relationship with us. But that does not necessarily say anything about a deity who acts in more subtle and less intrusive ways, or even who just wants us to struggle with the idea of doing and being good with as little involvement as possible. Nothing really addresses the “problem of pain,” as it is usually presented, other than blind hope for something better in time or in balance, or merely a reluctance to embrace despair.

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Stephen
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September 6, 2022 - 1:51 pm

I self-identify as an atheist.  I’m not afraid of the word.  I don’t believe in god.  I’m not saying I am certain there is no god.  Certainty is a meaningless category of thought.  All assertions are subject to revision, update, disconfirmation.  If I come upon a compelling reason to believe in god then I will revise my position.  This is why I find most forms of agnosticism incoherent.  Not that I don’t accept categories of doubt and indecision.  Just the contrary.  They are fundamental to all positions.  (I would hope even the most faithful believer could accept the possibility they can be wrong.) 

If someone thinks the existence of god is unknowable (Huxley’s view) then what is the functional difference between the unknowable god and no god at all?  If you haven’t “made up your mind” yet what would it take?  Certainty is impossible under any conditions so what is it exactly that you are waiting for?  We deal in contingencies, probabilities.

But I am consistent.   As an atheist I am a determinist.  There is no “ought”, only “is”.   Everything is as it must be nor could it be otherwise.  It follows that morality is descriptive not prescriptive.  As an individual I have preferences.  I am not a Buddha who can look with equanimity on life and death.  But I do not project my preferences on the universe.   I realize that many people find this point of view to be an enormous buzz kill so I leave you with Enrico Fermi.

Whatever Nature has in store for mankind, unpleasant as it may be, we must accept; for ignorance is never better than knowledge.

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JAS

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September 7, 2022 - 6:05 am

I will add another consideration to this discussion, merely for incidental interest. We have to remember that the books were written at a time when their transmission necessarily meant that they had to be copied by hand, requiring skills and resources that were hardly common. Consequently, whatever purpose the writers may have had in mind, they were probably also fully aware that it was best if the books were fairly short. Thus, they had to balance this consideration with the idea of recording whatever they thought was of sufficient importance. (In light of this limitation, it is curious that the writers of Matthew and Luke felt that the long genealogies passed this test of merit when to modern eyes they both seem rather esoteric in addition to being problematic.) It might be that, if we think in terms of the currently most widely accepted sequence, the writer of Mark erred a bit in the direction of brevity, and later writers felt that the omission of some information was more troublesome than the additional overhead for copyists.

Here are the word counts I found online:

Name Testament Words
Matthew N 18,346
Mark N 11,304
Luke N 19,482
John N 15,635

This is from ** you do not have permission to see this link ** which may or may not be the best source. It appears to be a count based on the King James translation, which is not ideal but sufficient to give a sense of the differences in length.

In any case, I suspect that the writers of Matthew and Luke, even with an interest in adding material, were acting under the constraint of becoming too long. While from a modern perspective, we would certainly have preferred more detail to less, I think a truncation of such detail was essentially inevitable, both from the passing of time and for practical considerations.

 

Edit: With a little more digging, I found a website that claims to give the counts based on the original language: ** you do not have permission to see this link **

They give the same counts for these books, which is either a remarkable coincidence or suggests that there was some problem in my cursory evaluation of the first site (or the means of gathering the information in the second).

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Jill_L

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September 7, 2022 - 10:57 am

Just a follow up on the esoteric genealogy topic. ** you do not have permission to see this link **

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Porphyry

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September 27, 2022 - 3:38 pm

I haven’t been able to move past this subject. It really seems to me absolutely critical questions whether the gospel authors believed their historical claims and whether they intended their readers to believe those claims. We may of course, not be able to adjudicate between the possibilities, but we should at least be aware that the possibilities are discrete and each bears its own distinctive implications about the history of Christianity.

Given the way Matthew and Luke rework Mark, if they believed their own historical claims, the only way I can make sense of the gospels they left is to think they were working with a multitude of conflicting sources and trying to reconcile them into a coherent narrative (a bit like Tatian harmonizing the conflicting Gospels in the Diatessaron, or like scholars today sorting through early Christian literature to try to find the historical Jesus)–they couldn’t have been just reworking Mark and fitting in some sayings from Q because, if that’s all they had, they were way too free with their use of those sources to believe that what they were writing was historically true; if they believed what they were writing then they must have had other sources that somehow justified the significant changes they made to their sources. 

I haven’t deeply considered the proposal that they didn’t believe their historical claims but intended them to be believed (i.e., they were lying), but it is interesting in part because it might actually preserve a lot of history. If they wanted to be believed then they would have had to conform to the facts that were already widely known. Even the worst propaganda has a lot of truth in it; you just have to sort through it really carefully. 

I have found myself fascinated by the possibility that some of them (particularly Mark, I haven’t really started considering whether this works with the others yet) didn’t believe his historical claims, but also didn’t expect those claims to be taken as historical fact–he was deliberately writing historical fiction. If that was the case, then it would again bear significant implications for the history of early Christianity. 

Let me start here: My understanding is that in paganism there are often a large number of people who practice the religion but don’t accept the mythology as historically true. The insistence on belief–orthodoxy–seems to me largely an invention of the monotheistic religions. Sure the rustic and unlettered often accept the pagan theology at face value, but the urbane and educated often didn’t; what unified believers was orthopraxy: It was observing the feasts and rituals–not believing truth claims–that made you an adherent of the religion. (I believe this is still the case in Hinduism, for example; you can also see this in Socrates, who seems to be a monotheist, though he will speak about “the gods” and kept various pagan festivals). Thus too, we see poets freely making up stories about the gods and weaving new mythology, e.g., Homer in the Iliad, Virgil in the Aeneid, Aeschylus, and so forth. 

I’m a lot less confident, but we might also see something like this in the redactors of the Torah; consider that they freely rework their sources (if we accept something like the documentary hypothesis), but they also seem to do a really miserable job disguising the fact that they are freely reworking their sources: look at doublets or the inconsistent use of the names for God–all the things that tip the modern critics off to multiple documentary sources are actually pretty obvious things that a decent redactor could have covered up and smoothed out if he’d wanted to disguise what he was doing; this suggests to me that they weren’t really aiming to make a convincing forgery. (I think this is suggestive but not at all conclusive, btw.)

So let’s take it as an established fact that in the ancient pagan world (and possibly also in the Jewish world) there was an established attitude to religion that (a) you didn’t have to believe everything, (b) authors could freely rework previous mythology and write new mythology in their literature. 

Well, why not read Mark as doing just that? It is historical fiction, like a movie “based on” a true story–but improved in various ways to make it a better story and to make explicit the morals and themes that Mark wants to advance. 

Now you object: There is no other example from the ancient world of a work that is 1) historical (in the sense of based on or presented as if a true story) 2) narrative 3) prose, 4) not obviously fictional.

Well, first of all (4) is hard to assess: was the Aeneid obviously fiction? Was the Exodus story? Was Mark’s Gospel? If you think Mark isn’t obviously fiction, I don’t see why you would think the Iliad is obviously fiction. 

As to (1-3), yes, the gospels are somewhat odd in that combination. If we take the Pentateuch as a parallel, that would count as a precedent. It isn’t certain that it is parallel, but remember, Mark seems to be working in a non-Jewish context–even if first century Jews all took the Pentateuch as history, a gentile reader, with a pagan background might very well have taken it as myth, analogous to his own culture’s mythology. 

But set that aside: We have cases of non-narrative historical fiction in prose (Plato’s dialogues–to what degree is Plato’s Socrates historically accurate and to what degree is he a literary character used both to voice and to illustrate Plato’s philosophy? It is impossible to say, but he clearly has at least an element of the literary); we have examples in verse of narrative historical fiction (basically all epic poetry, with gods intervening left and right, as the authors think appropriate). It isn’t that big of a leap from those established conventions to move to the combination I’m suggesting in Mark–narrative, prose, historical fiction. 

Finally we might find a precedent in the original, pre-Herodotan “historians”–the Ionian logographers of the 6th-5th centuries BC, who wrote in prose concerning a wide variety of subjects, including mythology. As with the Pentateuch, whether they happened to believe that the mythology they recorded was historical isn’t the issue; what matters is how first century readers would have understood their mythological writings (assuming they were known at the time).

Finally, Mark has a real literary sophistication (not to say linguistic sophistication) that his readers certainly would have picked up on. And he is writing to a gentile audience that would have been accustomed to the idea of historical fiction of one sort or another. I don’t see why his executing historical fiction in narrative prose should force us to discount the possibility that his gospel is fundamentally a work of historical fiction. Is it that hard to imagine a gentile from a pagan background hearing the basic story of Jesus–a charismatic preacher and wonder-worker who was claimed to have been the long prophesied messiah fo the Jews, who taught a message of love and selflessness, and who was then betrayed and brutally executed, but whose followers say they have seen him risen from the dead–and thinking dang, that is a really compelling plot; I could make that into one heck of a story? 

Aside from this being largely a speculative suggestion, the main problem I see in it is that Paul is earlier than Mark and he is clearly concerned with historical veracity of at least one of the narrative elements–1 Cor 15:14–though it is also remarkable and noteworthy how few historical facts about Jesus can be gleaned from Paul. Likewise, even in Mark we get the importance of “faith” (e.g., Mk 5:34)–though faith may very well not have meant for Mark what it meant for later proto-orthodox. 

Again, there is something awkward in this recentness of this mythology. Usually mythology is set far in the past. But on the other hand, this mythology, though recent, was set in the foreign east and piggy-backed on an ancient and respected, though strange to Romans, religion of Judaism and their ancient prophecies. 

I suppose what I am kicking the tires on could be fleshed out something like this (again it is highly speculative–lots of imagination and little evidence): there was a strain of early Christianity that got picked up by the Romans and functioned essentially as one of the mystery cults (I think we have some archeological evidence of such a strain of Christianity, practiced in secret and spread by Roman military officers; and we know that the mystery cults were sufficiently like Christianity that Justin Martyr could, in the second century, claim they were corruptions of Christianity). As a culturally pagan mystery cult, whether it was historically true or not wasn’t critical to its own practitioners. In continuity with the religious ideas of the Greco-Roman world, orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy was definitive. Mark belonged to or was at least influenced by this strain of Christianity, and was–in continuity with Greco-Roman ideas about religion and myth– writing a mythology. In fact, Mark might be an early artifact of the specific religious movement that would eventually emerge as gnostic Christianity (which makes loads of sense if we take Secret Mark seriously; it also firs well with the messianic secret).  

There were of course other strains of Christianity, including a more Pauline version that emphasized the historicity of the resurrection, and a Jewish version (seen in James and later in the Didache). And these tended to cross-pollinate, so that mark influences and gets adopted by the proto-orthodox who had been influenced by Paul. 

What think you?

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CEJ

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September 27, 2022 - 5:38 pm

Porphyry said
 

What think you?

  

I think that is an excellent post — the kind we need more of.

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