Robert

Tacitus mentions the crucifixion as historical fact, not necessarily as part of the superstitious beliefs of the Christians.

Steefen

You are in error again. Tacitus calls it all a mischevious myth: Jesus not speaking against Roman taxes but being crucified by Pilate who did not even crucify the Samaritan, he slayed him, 2) Tiberius did not want Roman overseers causing trouble in Judea, 3) the early 30s CE were not a time of bandits such that two of them were crucified with Jesus, 4) given the lack of Beatitudes and Our Father Prayer in the Oral Tradition at that time because they don’t show up in the Letters of Paul or the Gospel of Mark, there is a whole lot less to impress Tacitus that the beliefs of the Chrestians was anything but fodder for militant messianic mischief and zealotry, 4) Tacitus was not making a fact-checked statement checked against Roman records of who Pilate slew; what(?), do you think there was a file somewhere where there was a scroll that said, Pilate slew the Samaritan for causing a disturbance, Pilate slew (not crucified) Jesus for causing a disturbance, Plilate slew two bandit/revolutionaries with Jesus, but they had nothing to do with Jesus?

Give us some secular history reporting Pilate crucifying anyone, especially if they did not speak against Rome.

Give us some secular history reporting the early 30s CE were a time of Jewish attacks against Rome. What you will find are Jews baring their necks to Rome

Here is a link showing Pilate under Tiberius, not anti-Semitic Sejanus, would have been very careful about giving Jews a seed for Revolt.

The relevant information is in the lower third of the article.

** you do not have permission to see this link **

Tacitus was born circa 56 CE.

Rome burned July 64 CE.

Tacitus says Christians were known for their hatred of the human race, referring to their apocalypse and if the following two verses were part of the Oral Tradition then, then the Christians have a stronger case against themselves.

I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Luke 12: 49
…but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13: 12

Confessed members of Christianity were arrested. Because of their disclosures, Christians were convicted.

Christians had a sense of salvation about the burning of Rome, a salvation that was depraved indifference towards loss of life and property; i.e. hatred of the human race, which annoyed Roman leadership which punished them for it.

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I simply described what the superstition was:
– a flawed biography of a man not crucified by Pilate whose teachings produced militant messianism that led to a sense of injustice, arson, and a depraved indifference to loss of life and property.

No, I am not just responding to you, Robert, I am supporting a resolution with an affirmative case.

Robert, I will not sit by and let you excuse the behavior of the Chrestians at the time of Rome’s burning. The burning of Rome was not uncommon and the “common criticism” defense does not cut it. You have no moral authority on this subject.

This topic has to do with the Chrestians’ confessions of arson.

I suggest you re-read Tacitus, and I quote:

“Confessed members of Christianity were arrested. Because of their disclosures, Christians were convicted.“

You claim there is no indication that Tacitus is referring specifically to an apocalypse. The Biblical Jesus and the Biblical Paul did not make a defining character of the early church: apocalyptic thinking? You are making a bogus assertion because the Biblical Jesus and the Biblical Paul did make a defining character of the early church apocalyptic thinking.

Your comprehension of Tacitus is not comprehensive. You say Tacitus does not say the Chrestians were arsonists: he says they were arrested for their disclosures. People get arrested for wrongdoing. People get convicted for wrongdoing. Getting justice for the loss of life and property was the scene Tacitus was relaying. Tacitus did not soley report Nero blaming the Chrestians, he reported that an investigation was done, Chrestians made disclosures which incriminated the Chrestians, Chrestians were punished.

I am not free to write anything about history. You seem to have the unethical quality of cherry picking what you want out of the works of Tacitus. Face all of the facts: Tacitus wrote: “Because of their disclosures [not just Nero’s blame] Christians were convicted.” That is history, not what you have replied.

Reading comprehension of the Tacitus passages lead to Chrestians showing no sympathy or remorse for the loss of life and property on a grand scale, showing no compassion in their religion: “God, help those people suffering, for the loss of their family members, pets, homes.” There is no warm feelings about how the Chrestians reacted to the tragedy and Tacitus knows this and wrote to bring that message home. You, Robert, are not at home plate with your reading comprehension.

Robert
Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind (haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odiohumani generis convicti sunt).

Steefen

Is English your native language?

“Tommy, I am not going to punish you so much of the crime of eating the whole pack of cookies, I am going to punish you because you lied to me,” said his Mother.

Did Tommy eat the whole pack of cookies or did he just lie to his Mother? According to your faulty reading comprehension, the answer would be Tommy did not eat the whole pack of cookies.

Loeb Classical Library
First, then, the confessed members of the sect were arrested; next, on their disclosures, vast numbers were convicted, not so much on the count of arson as for hatred of the human race. And derision accompanied their end: they were covered with wild beasts’ skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night. Nero had offered his Gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition in his Circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a single man.

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Hackett Classics ** you do not have permission to see this link **
The first to be seized were those who confessed [The first few who were seized confessed], then, on their information, a mighty number was convicted, not so much on the charge of the conflagration as for their hatred of the human race. And, as they perished, mockeries were added, so that, covered in the hides of wild beasts, they expired from mutilation by dogs or, fixed to crosses and made flammable. On the dwindling of daylight, they were burned for use as nocturnal illumination. Nero had offered his gardens for the spectacle and he produced circus games, mingling with the plebs in the dress of a charioteer or standing in his racer. Hence, there arose—albeit for culprits who deserved the ultimate exemplary treatment—a feeling of pity, as though it were not in the public interest but for one man’s savagery, that they were being eliminated.

Tacitus

Translated, with Introduction and Notes, by A. J. Woodman

Annals

“An elegant addition to Tacitean scholarship. . . . The appendices are comprehensive and extremely useful for students, covering political and military terms that are cross-referenced to the text, the deployment of the army which can be confusing in the Annals, Rome, geographical and tribal names, and maps as well as a good index of names. . . . This translation has many eminently practical features, including clear layout, the use of footnotes, and numbering of the text. . . . The Introduction is very accessible and, coupled with the text, will be very useful for students.”

    —Alisdair Gibson, Journal of Classics Teaching

The Case for Nero’s Guilt
1
A majority of sources think that Nero is to blame but the careful historian, Tacitus has doubts.
2
Nero used the devastation to build his Domus Aurea, but the fire started in a different region altogether.
3
Nero played his lyre and sang while Rome war burning but the music played on the sinking Titanic and we sing Amazing Grace to comfort our experience of tragedy. Second, there are three different accounts–not in agreement
4
“When I die, may the world be consigned to flames.”
Nero corrected, “No, while I live.”
5
People claiming imperial authority were seen throwing torches into buildings and impeding fire-fighting efforts.
Tigellinus seems to be Nero’s co-conspirator.
6
Nero knew what was coming given what happened in the Temple of Vesta

The Case against the Christians
1
July 18-19 is when the Dog Star Sirius rose in the sky. It is associated with mystical speculation.
The renewal of the world through new auspices was the speculation.
Eastern-based opposition to Rome
2
Anti-Roman sentiment and fanaticism were members of the early Christian communities, in the Holy Land and in Rome, at this time and within two years the Jewish Revolt would break out

The Gospel definitely has calls to arms:
I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Luke 12: 49
…but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13: 12

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God.
Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
ROMANS 13: 1-2; so, Paul knew about the attack and tried to talk down the Zealots in Rome.

Paul was aware, unequivocally was advocating political resistance.

So you have an Anti-Roman, politicized group of apocalyptic, religious fanatics that confessed arson.

You have an Anti-Roman, politicized group of apocalyptic, religious fanatics that confessed arson.