achase79 said
All the names in the gospels are in Greek, since the gospels are written in Greek. Most of the disciples, however, had names with Hebrew or Aramaic equivalents. Richard Bauckham has a couple interesting chapters in his book Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.Simon = Simeon (but this is also an independent Greek name)
John = Yehohanan, Yohanan
Levi = Levi
Matthew = Mattai
Matthias = Mattiya or Mattiyah
Thadeus = Taddai (or possibly Greek Theodosios, Theodotus, or Theodoros)
Judas = Yehudah
James = Ya’aqov
Bartholomew = bar Ptolemaios (Bauckham – “popular because it was a royal name of the Hellenistic rulers of Egypt”)
Nathanael = Netan’el
Thomas = Teoma (Bauckham – “there is little indication that Thomas was used as a name by Palestinian Jews.”)
Disciples with Greek names in the Gospels: Andrew and Philip.
Bauckham argues that use of popular names of Palestinian Jews in the gospels makes it more likely that they trace their tradition back to Palestine. He also argues (by citation, not evidence) that diaspora naming was different. However, a quick review of the more recently published volumes of Tal Ilan’s Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity shows that Biblical and Hasmonean names (like those listed above) are also represented in the Eastern and Western diaspora, although the frequency of Hasmonean names (i.e. Simon, John, Matthias) is somewhat reduced. It seems to me that the name data (of the disciples, not of all characters in the gospels) fits reasonably well with first century Palestine, but does not rule out diaspora.
+1
My notes on Rev. Walt Marcum’s assertions about Greek names of Disciples:
Where did these Hellenistic Jesus believers come from?
There is some evidence that there may have been some Hellenists among the original disciples of Jesus. Three of his disciples had Greek names: Peter, Philip, and Andrew.
{I disagree. Philip and Andrew, yes; but, Peter’s name was originally Simon. achase79 wrote:
Simon = Simeon (but this is also an independent Greek name)
So, maybe we have 2 and a half possibilities disciples with Greek names.}
John’s Gospel tells us that all three disciples came from the same town, Bethsaida:
John 1: 44: Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Archeological Evidence shows that Bethsaida was a mixed Jewish and Gentile city with stone cups and pork bones. This may explain another story in John. John 12: 20-21: Now, among those who went up to the worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” The implication is that the Greeks approached one of their own–Philip was Greek.
“..modern translations are now lying through their teeth to say that he was called…Jesus!”
1.) Why would they lie about the name Jesus? Are you suggesting Jesus is the equivalent to Emannuel?
2.) the problem is said to be that there was no Greek (Koine Greek?) equivalent for Yeshua and that Jesus was the closest thing. If this is true then the whole accusation of “lying” falls to the ground.
The OT said his name would be called Immanuel, not Jesus, nor Jeshua, nor any alternative.
So what is the equivalent in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic?
Secondly we are dealing with a ‘prophecy’ according to Christians and so IF that was true, then God would surely have known that the NT was to be written in Greek and the absolute correct name written so to avoid any interpretation like we are having now.
On the other hand, the more likely option was it was not a future prophesy and God had nothing to do with it by sending any imaginary angel down. Its this type of obfuscation that was dreamt up by Greek Christians to tailor scripture. In my simple mind. That is not fibbing or untruths. But down right lying and why I for one want nothing to do with it. They were all at it. Even Jesus when he failed to show up in that generation. IF Christians believe he is alive and in heaven, he has had 2000 years to correct all the anomalies. After all, all the human race souls’ depend on the truth doesn’t it? OTOH???? As I said!
Steefen said
achase79 said
Steefen – I’m not sure where you’re getting Jesus’ association with the Essenes. They’re not mentioned in the NT, and although the War Scroll has similarities with Jesus’ Apocalyptic thought, it certainly doesn’t reference him. I don’t see any reason to connect them.Also, I think Nicodemus is likely a fictional character introduced by John. His absence in the synoptic gospels, and historical difficulties with his dialog in John 3 suggest to me that John introduced him as a narrative foil.
I agree that it is not impossible that Jesus had ‘literate followers or fans’ (much more likely literate in Aramaic than Greek), but I think it is unlikely that those people wrote the Gospels. And if Jesus did have literate followers or fans, it would only be a handful given the literacy rate of < 3% in all of first century Palestine.
We know Josephus spent time with the Essenes before he was 25.
It cannot be ruled out that Jesus did not acquaint himself with the Essenes. Jesus was a Jewish purist. He did not just acquaint himself with John the Baptist and that was it. Whatever sect/group were readers or listeners of Enoch, Jesus acquainted himself with them: he did not just read Daniel.
It does not matter if Nicodemus was fictional or not, Nicodemus represents the minority of Pharisees who had reverence and respect for Jesus. Would you like to make a resolution that Jesus did not get through to one or a larger minority of Pharisees?
I said “I’m not sure where you’re getting Jesus’ association with the Essenes”, after you said “with Jesus’ association with the Essenes, they were literate, they could write.” I can’t rule out Jesus knowing the Essenes, I don’t have any evidence either way. I was asking if you had any. Generally the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim.
You said ” if Jesus could get the support of a Nicodemus, men of his age group could have advised there sons to follow Jesus for a while and be numbered in his 70.” I noted that there’s evidence that Nicodemus is a fictional character. Sure, Jesus could have gotten through to the Pharisees, but presenting what is likely a fictional/highly mythologized character as evidence of this isn’t convincing.
In both cases, I’m not denying your claim, I’m just asking for good evidence for your claims. These claims strike me as undecidable based on the historical evidence that we have.
Steefen said
My notes on Rev. Walt Marcum’s assertions about Greek names of Disciples:
Where did these Hellenistic Jesus believers come from?
There is some evidence that there may have been some Hellenists among the original disciples of Jesus. Three of his disciples had Greek names: Peter, Philip, and Andrew.
{I disagree. Philip and Andrew, yes; but, Peter’s name was originally Simon. achase79 wrote:
Simon = Simeon (but this is also an independent Greek name)So, maybe we have 2 and a half possibilities disciples with Greek names.}
John’s Gospel tells us that all three disciples came from the same town, Bethsaida:
John 1: 44: Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Archeological Evidence shows that Bethsaida was a mixed Jewish and Gentile city with stone cups and pork bones. This may explain another story in John. John 12: 20-21: Now, among those who went up to the worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.” The implication is that the Greeks approached one of their own–Philip was Greek.
To this we might add the aramaism on “Ptolemy”, it’s like someone took the name Mohammadson in the anglo-saxon world. The presence of Hellenistic names could mean that the Galilean substratum from which the disciples were drawn was less traditionally Jewish than usually believed, or that the Gospel writers creatively introduced Hellenistic names from an originally obscure list, to promote the message in the Hellenistic world. Maybe the first option is better for all I know, since the message so easily drifted out of Jewish home ground.
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