luke:
35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he had been made known to them in the breaking of the bread.
luke:
36 While they were talking about this,
>>>insert matthew<<<<<<:
(16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”) >>>>>exit matthew<<<<<
luke:
Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and terrified, and thought that they were seeing a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.[m] 41 While in their joy they were disbelieving and still wondering, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate in their presence.
Luke:
and that repentance and forgiveness of sins is to be proclaimed
Luke:
And see, I am sending upon you what my Father promised; so stay here in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.
question :
is this the chronology luke had in mind, he already knew that the 11 met jesus in galilee?
there are some who say that the words, “while they were talking about this…” refers to a break in chronology. lets say there is a break, so when is the visit to galilee in matthew taking place? while they were talking ?
the chronological markers luke has provided seems that one thing is happening after the other. those who wish to reconcile the accounts say that there is a break in the chronology, so then where should the visit in matthew be placed?
Bart Ehrman wrote :
Again I’m afraid the grammar doesn’t work. As you know, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** opens with a genitive absolute. There’s no way I’m going to try to explain that to non-Greek readers here! But it is in the *present* tense, and so it must mean “while they were talking about this” – that is, at the moment they were speaking. That’s when Jesus appeared to them. In the room they are speaking in. So it was the same day. The same moment. It was not hours or days later. It was “while” they were speaking.
notice what ehrman said “to non-greek readers”
is it true that “gentive absolute” is difficult to explain unless one has understanding in greek?
Stephen said
Some online obsessive has compiled a ** you do not have permission to see this link ** of every instance of the genitive absolute in the NT.
That sounds like penance, for some terrible sin. . . . or perhaps it is the sin itself, although most sins are usually more fun than that.
In Some of the Verses Mark and Matthew also Totally contradicted each other you have to investigate the truth yourself. for example
In Mark 8:11-13 we read that Jesus said with certainty no sign will be Given to that GENERATION of Jews.
In Mathew 12:38-42 we read that, after the Pharisees and teachers of the Law asked for a sign the Sign of Jonah was given to them.
This is a contradiction of the gospels and this forces one to do further investigation of the scriptures to determine what is the truth and what is falsehood or a fabrication.
on my personal investigation i realized the Verse in Matthew 12:38-42 is a complete fabrication and falsehood Pinned on Jesus Because;
1. The Miracle or sign in Jonah is that Jonah was ALIVE for 3 days and 3 Nights in the belly of the see creature, while in Mathew it Implies Jesus will be DEAD for three days and 3 Nights. was that LIKE Jonah OR was it UNLIKE Jonah? as for me that was UNLIKE Jonah. – A Contradiction.
2. According to the Bible Jesus was crucified and buried Friday evening and claimed or Assumed to have resurrected on Sunday Morning because those who are claimed to have visited the Tomb, Found the Tomb Empty on Sunday morning but there is no Justification when he is claimed to have resurrected. what if he resurrected that same Friday Night or Saturday Morning or Saturday Evening. There is no clear cut Proof at what time and day he resurrected , but taking the day as per the bible From Friday to Sunday morning its barely 2 Nights and 1 day, and therefore the Prophecy of 3 days and 3 Nights was never fulfilled – A False Prophecy.
therefore as for me Matthew 12:38-42 is a FALSEHOOD and a FABRICATION, I would rather go with Mark 8:11-12 and believe no Prophecies were Given than go with something that contradicts the real Story of Jonah and Also is a False Prophecy.
Robert said
Take a look at the Q/Lukan version of the Sign of Jonah saying (Lk 11,29-32). In the hypothetical earlier Q context and/or the Lukan context, the sign of Jonah to the Ninevites is simply that gentiles will be converted by a Jewish prophet. The Matthean version has elements of this interpretation (12,41: The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them). So, even if one does not accept the Q hypothesis, it is reasonable to believe that this is an earlier/original version of this story before someone (Matthew?) added the resurrection interpretation.
The evidence favors the “sign of Jonah”, in whatever form, being the original version. Therefore the evidence favors the Matthew/Luke version being original to Mark.
mzejum said
1. The Miracle or sign in Jonah is that Jonah was ALIVE for 3 days and 3 Nights in the belly of the see creature, while in Mathew it Implies Jesus will be DEAD for three days and 3 Nights. was that LIKE Jonah OR was it UNLIKE Jonah? as for me that was UNLIKE Jonah. – A Contradiction.
Jonah 2:2 “from the depth of Sheol (the realm of dead) I cried for help.”
Like Jonah Jesus returned from Sheol after three days and three nights.
2. According to the Bible Jesus was crucified and buried Friday evening and claimed or Assumed to have resurrected on Sunday Morning because those who are claimed to have visited the Tomb, Found the Tomb Empty on Sunday morning but there is no Justification when he is claimed to have resurrected. what if he resurrected that same Friday Night or Saturday Morning or Saturday Evening. There is no clear cut Proof at what time and day he resurrected , but taking the day as per the bible From Friday to Sunday morning its barely 2 Nights and 1 day, and therefore the Prophecy of 3 days and 3 Nights was never fulfilled – A False Prophecy.
Luke 23:44 “it was now the sixth hour and darkness come over the land until the ninth hour”
Jesus died in darkness, then at the ninth hour on Friday it was day again, then Friday evening, then the sabbath, then the evening, then dawn on Sunday.
This is three days and three nights.
Robert said
No, it does not. The overwhelming majority of scholars very differently than you, but you already knew that.
In the isolated case of the “sign for this generation” the evidence favors Matthew/Luke being the original version.
Whether or not the preponderance of evidence favors Markan priority overall is a separate question.
brenmcg said
mzejum said
1. The Miracle or sign in Jonah is that Jonah was ALIVE for 3 days and 3 Nights in the belly of the see creature, while in Mathew it Implies Jesus will be DEAD for three days and 3 Nights. was that LIKE Jonah OR was it UNLIKE Jonah? as for me that was UNLIKE Jonah. – A Contradiction.
Jonah 2:2 “from the depth of Sheol (the realm of dead) I cried for help.”
Like Jonah Jesus returned from Sheol after three days and three nights.
2. According to the Bible Jesus was crucified and buried Friday evening and claimed or Assumed to have resurrected on Sunday Morning because those who are claimed to have visited the Tomb, Found the Tomb Empty on Sunday morning but there is no Justification when he is claimed to have resurrected. what if he resurrected that same Friday Night or Saturday Morning or Saturday Evening. There is no clear cut Proof at what time and day he resurrected , but taking the day as per the bible From Friday to Sunday morning its barely 2 Nights and 1 day, and therefore the Prophecy of 3 days and 3 Nights was never fulfilled – A False Prophecy.
Luke 23:44 “it was now the sixth hour and darkness come over the land until the ninth hour”
Jesus died in darkness, then at the ninth hour on Friday it was day again, then Friday evening, then the sabbath, then the evening, then dawn on Sunday.
This is three days and three nights.
Oh!
This is interesting, i never Knew dead People would cry out when they were dead!, i think this is a new discovery or an illusion or allusion. because Jonah 2:2 says “From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help”, He says he CALLED out Meaning he was ALIVE. Its like Me going into a grave yard, call out to God , then when i come out people start claiming i was Making the call while i was dead, but now i am Alive. in Short your interpretation does not make any sense at all. But you can believe what you want.
Next time when it becomes Dark because of cloud cover or because of an eclipse, i will keep it mind that it was Night. I think Jesus knew difference between Darkness and Night. But you can still believe on what you want, but you can’t convince me a darkness of an hour is considered as nightfall.
any way, you must have forgotten John 20:1 in your analysis, you claim we consider darkness is a Night and in John 20:1 it says it was still dark when Magdalene went to visit, so how do we account for this darkness? do we count the dawn as a day or do we add this darkness as a night? or do we still count it as Saturday night or what do we do with it?. because according to you, you consider darkness as a night.
lastly, what proof do you have he never resurrected on sabbath?, or Friday night? or Saturday Night? Did any one witness the resurrection of Jesus like they witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus?
And if you consider the darkness as a night, why don’t you consider the after dark hours as the sabbath? because it was written Jesus was crucified on the Preparation day of the sabbath.
Its just the sign of Jonah that needs to be fulfilled. If it was the case the darkness covered the land while Jesus was crucified and died and that he rose early from the dead early on Sunday morning, I don’t think anyone would say Matthew was wrong to say the sign of Jonah was fulfilled.
John doesn’t mention the sign of Jonah and his description of Mary visiting the tomb doesn’t quite match Matthew.
But what matters is that Matthew has a consistent account of the fulfillment of the sign of Jonah and that we can’t say
“** you do not have permission to see this link ** is a complete fabrication and falsehood Pinned on Jesus“
The other three are writing after Matthew.
Robert said
Not a separate question but rather a systematic overview of all of the evidence. Not only do you always avoid this, but you’ve presented no evidence whatsoever for believing that Matthew’s (or Luke’s) version was original.
I thought I was just agreeing with you that the version in Matthew/Luke was the older version? “So, even if one does not accept the Q hypothesis, it is reasonable to believe that this is an earlier/original version of this story before someone (Matthew?) added the resurrection interpretation.“
If Matthew/Luke have a version closer to the original (whatever that was) it is, in this isolated case, evidence of their priority to Mark.
How does Matthew’s version seem like a composite?
“Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth. The people of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and see, something greater than Jonah is here! The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to listen to the wisdom of Solomon, and see, something greater than Solomon is here!“
Flows perfectly with coherency of thought throughout.
Luke and Mark are best understood as reacting against the “three days and three nights” prophecy. Questioning how this was fulfilled if Jesus died on a Friday and rose on Sunday.
Was Jonah really the most appropriate prophet for Luke to pick as a prototype for Jesus? “For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation“. Is it just a coincidence that this prophet was three days and three nights in Sheol? Or is Luke editing a version that had this prophecy included?
Mark’s version is reduced to a pointless conversation with the pharisees “the Pharisees came and began to argue with him, seeking from him a sign from heaven, to test him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and said, Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation. And he left them, and getting into the boat again he departed to the other side.“
Were there really no signs given? Are healing the sick and raising the dead not signs? Or is Mark not clearly editing someone else’s material.
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