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Gods weaknesses according to early Christians
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RM

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March 26, 2022 - 4:58 pm

Are there any early Christians or jews who seem to think God has some (limited and small) weaknesses in knowledge or power over the world. 

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Robert
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March 26, 2022 - 6:24 pm
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RM

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March 26, 2022 - 6:43 pm

Robert said
There were definitely some who held to a lesser god, a demiurge of some kind who created the world with all its flaws. Many of these groups, both Jewish and Christian, used to be grouped under the now problematized term of ‘gnosticism’. Perhaps the best known believer in such a lesser demiurge was Marcion, but there were lots of groups who held similar beliefs with many variations. You might want to look up more details about Marcion, Valentinianism, Basilideanism, Sethites, Cainites, Ophites, Barbeloites, etc. I can’t keep them all straight in my head.

  

Yeah it seems like lumping all of them under a single label does disservice. There are elements of the “gnostic theme” everywhere and seems like any given group would probably emphasize some aspects over others. Less a tree with different branches and more a muddy stream where different flows sometimes mix back in with each other for different combinations.

 

I say this because there seems to be some hints to me in Paul that God isn’t the kind of absolutely transcendent all knowing all powerful deity beyond any likeness to creation that jews and Christians assume of today

That might be his view (in a sense) but I get the feeling to him God is a kind of very powerful and good character in a story but not 100% an alien and flawless being with absolute control over the universe. Hence he keeps trying things like the law of Moses which fails and later the revival of His son which succeeds to redeem mankind from the forces of sin and death. If we look at God as a kind of character in a story, He is winning a battle He needed to put a bit of effort in (but eventually came out the victor) for the sake of humans. Paul seems to me to suggest that we’ve got to side with Him now in His new special plan that this time is going to work! Its a very creative syncretic kind of story telling. Also we have to keep in mind the primary source of theology of back then would be stories with good guys and bad guys. This kind of victory over the weakness of flesh and sin and death would keep Paul’s emphasis more on God winning the battle against these extraordinarily powerful cosmic forces. 

Another thing that convinces me is, Paul seems to think Jesus is a newly minted God. What someone says when they’re indicating this kind of belief, that a new god or demigod has been annointed is that the nature of God Himself has changed. Just like nobody is the same person when they become a parent, likewise with God himself

 

I feel this matches really well with his view that the world and reality itself is now changing like the birth from fetus to something else. In the future he says there won’t even be male or female! We can take that metaphorically but my hunch is he really thinks future people in christ are going to be fundamentally changed and maybe start to look like the spiritual planet bodies instead of looking like humans (maybe) so just the saved in Christ + angels +God in the new redeemed world. 

 

To put it as a contrast 

 

There is one model of the world where God is all powerful and free of need and super in control and just creates humans to serve Him as His created slaves, tested with obedience or disobedience and rewarded accordingly (or in some strands not at all.) 

 

But there is another model of the world where God isn’t like that, he’s more a character himself, one of the good guys, the strongest and in charge like a kind wise and caring king, but still in the battle himself as a character, trying one thing or another to fight off evil before eventually succeeding by adopting His right hand angel to be His son when His previous attempt of sending prophets and laws to the subjects of the kingdom didn’t work. 

 

Anyways those are just my semi coherent thoughts swirling in my head 

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