Matt2239 said
That’s an interesting viewpoint. It seems your concept of a good religion is one that allows you to escape reality.
No, the concept of a good religion is one that allows one to work with reality. Or haven’t you noticed?!? A good religion should have a sound understanding anatomy and physiology, so that the healer doesn’t make stupid mistakes. Aren’t you the one who thinks that rubbing dirt and spit into a blindman’s eyes is a cure-all for blindness? Don’t tell me I need to escape reality.
Millions of Christians pray to God to heal them, or talk comforting words to others that God will heal them. They are in some kind of a trance. Only a mean God would send a son, have him sacrificed thus taking away him who can heal the world, and keep him gone. God can’t heal because Jesus has to be on earth for “the father God” to heal, apparently. God is inept when Jesus isn’t on earth? I guess. Why does God still want you and billions of others to pray to him for healing when it doesn’t work?
A “good” religion would be one whose claims comport with reality. Since I don’t think any of them do I don’t consider any of them “good” although some are certainly less harmful than others. That’s not to say that religious believers haven’t stumbled upon valuable insights into human nature or produced great art. But “Bach, therefore god exists” is not much of an argument.
Aren’t you the one who thinks that rubbing dirt and spit into a blindman’s eyes is a cure-all for blindness? Don’t tell me I need to escape reality.
Millions of Christians pray to God to heal them, or talk comforting words to others that God will heal them. They are in some kind of a trance. Only a mean God would send a son, have him sacrificed thus taking away him who can heal the world, and keep him gone. God can’t heal because Jesus has to be on earth for “the father God” to heal, apparently. God is inept when Jesus isn’t on earth? I guess. Why does God still want you and billions of others to pray to him for healing when it doesn’t work?
Well I said if it were the spit of God then there’s no reason it shouldn’t heal blindness. Your spit or my spit wouldn’t be the same though because we are not gods.
As for the other, did you not get what you wanted after praying or something? Sounds like you put your money in the machine, cranked the handle, but no gumball fell out.
Stephen said
“Bach, therefore god exists” is not much of an argument.
How about, “Local school house, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Hospital, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Orphanage, therefore God exists.”
Sure, all these things are done by the state. It’s easier to finance them when you can collect taxes at gunpoint. But they weren’t always funded by secular government. They all began due to religious believers.
And it’s still that way. When you walk into a cholera camp in Africa, very often the person spoon-feeding the dying patient will be a religious believer working for free or nearly free. If you offer them more money, they want to spend it on those in need. Contrast that with the government solution, where social services workers administer help to the needy, while caring for their own families. There’s nothing wrong with that for sure. But our public dollars go much farther towards helping those in need due to the work of religious believers.
Matt2239 said
Well I said if it were the spit of God then there’s no reason it shouldn’t heal blindness. Your spit or my spit wouldn’t be the same though because we are not gods.
As for the other, did you not get what you wanted after praying or something? Sounds like you put your money in the machine, cranked the handle, but no gumball fell out.
Sounds like you are still cranking that handle, and just telling people that “the gumball will fall eventually, just wait!” while nothing happens.
Matt2239 said
How about, “Local school house, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Hospital, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Orphanage, therefore God exists.”
Sure, all these things are done by the state. It’s easier to finance them when you can collect taxes at gunpoint. But they weren’t always funded by secular government. They all began due to religious believers.
And it’s still that way. When you walk into a cholera camp in Africa, very often the person spoon-feeding the dying patient will be a religious believer working for free or nearly free. If you offer them more money, they want to spend it on those in need. Contrast that with the government solution, where social services workers administer help to the needy, while caring for their own families. There’s nothing wrong with that for sure. But our public dollars go much farther towards helping those in need due to the work of religious believers.
Too bad all those institutions started with pagan believers, atheists, and solipsists like Socrates, Galen, and Imhotep. Not by Christians, who persecuted education and science at all turns (oh look there goes Galileo being forced to give up his scientific findings because the church can’t handle the truth).
When I walk into a cholera camp I find people using medicine developed by secular institutions and scientific research. Not religion. And as an atheist who is a regular aid worker, I resent your bull.
And frankly, I have one thing to say about your religious dollars helping people: Joel Olsteen, Ted Haggard, and Pat Robertson. Yeah I’m sure those giant mega churches that cost 10’s of millions of dollars definitely couldn’t have been better spent helping people.
In fact why have a church at all? If you all love helping people so much, stop supporting church and give your money purely to the poor and needy.
You can stop being sanctimonious any time now.
Chris_Hansen said
Sounds like you are still cranking that handle, and just telling people that “the gumball will fall eventually, just wait!” while nothing happens.
Matt2239 said
How about, “Local school house, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Hospital, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Orphanage, therefore God exists.”
Sure, all these things are done by the state. It’s easier to finance them when you can collect taxes at gunpoint. But they weren’t always funded by secular government. They all began due to religious believers.
And it’s still that way. When you walk into a cholera camp in Africa, very often the person spoon-feeding the dying patient will be a religious believer working for free or nearly free. If you offer them more money, they want to spend it on those in need. Contrast that with the government solution, where social services workers administer help to the needy, while caring for their own families. There’s nothing wrong with that for sure. But our public dollars go much farther towards helping those in need due to the work of religious believers.Too bad all those institutions started with pagan believers, atheists, and solipsists like Socrates, Galen, and Imhotep. Not by Christians, who persecuted education and science at all turns (oh look there goes Galileo being forced to give up his scientific findings because the church can’t handle the truth).
When I walk into a cholera camp I find people using medicine developed by secular institutions and scientific research. Not religion. And as an atheist who is a regular aid worker, I resent your bull.
And frankly, I have one thing to say about your religious dollars helping people: Joel Olsteen, Ted Haggard, and Pat Robertson. Yeah I’m sure those giant mega churches that cost 10’s of millions of dollars definitely couldn’t have been better spent helping people.
In fact why have a church at all? If you all love helping people so much, stop supporting church and give your money purely to the poor and needy.
You can stop being sanctimonious any time now.
I have never told anyone that the gumball will eventually fall. I get that you’re resentful.
Matt2239 said
How about, “Local school house, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Hospital, therefore God exists.”
Or, “Orphanage, therefore God exists.”
Sure, all these things are done by the state. It’s easier to finance them when you can collect taxes at gunpoint. But they weren’t always funded by secular government. They all began due to religious believers.
And it’s still that way. When you walk into a cholera camp in Africa, very often the person spoon-feeding the dying patient will be a religious believer working for free or nearly free. If you offer them more money, they want to spend it on those in need. Contrast that with the government solution, where social services workers administer help to the needy, while caring for their own families. There’s nothing wrong with that for sure. But our public dollars go much farther towards helping those in need due to the work of religious believers.
Matt if you really think that the good behavior of the believer is evidence of the truth claims of their religion then what do you do with the Buddhists or the Sufi Muslims, both of whom also have long established charitable traditions?
“…collect taxes at gunpoint…” Matt are you a hardcore right wing Republican? I try to keep my politics and religion separate (admittedly it’s easier when you have no religion) but realize conservatives almost never can. Do you think The Almighty endorses laissez faire capitalism? Is that truly what you get from the New Testament? Do you really think that basic survival needs and healthcare and education should simply be the rewards of financial success and not the things we owe each other as part of the social contract?
I don’t mind my taxes going towards healthcare and education. A healthy and educated populace is to my benefit. It’s an investment. On the other hand I could do without massive subsidies and tax breaks for megacorps, and a ridiculous level of military spending squandered on bloated weapon systems designed not to defend us but to fill the coffers of the defense industry.
In our system government is not imposed upon us but derives its authority from us. Why shouldn’t the government work for all the people instead of a select few?
Stephen said
“…collect taxes at gunpoint…” Matt are you a hardcore right wing Republican?
Most people don’t realize how true it is. But my point is that it’s easier to finance good public works with taxes that are imposed rather than through voluntary charitable contributions.
The good works of Buddhists and Muslims are evidence of their faith in their respective deities, and evidence of the existence of their gods.
Based on the political content of our respective posts, it would seem you’re the Republican who can’t keep politics and religion separate.
Chris_Hansen said
I cannot recall a single person ever being forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.
And no good works are not evidence of anything. Also deity and god are synonymous.
If you don’t pay your real estate taxes, you will have a lien put on your house. If you still don’t resolve it, you will have your house sold to satisfy the debt. If you still don’t leave, men with guns will come and force you off what was once your property.
It’s actually an important concept to remember. The state can seize property and imprison people, which makes it easier to fund things like schools, hospitals, and, of course, armies. Churches that do good through charitable works rely entirely on voluntary contributions.
Government is a dirty business at its core. Removing the power of violence and incarceration from religious leaders has actually granted them a higher morality. It has led to a better type of Christianity, one that adheres to the separation of church and state, as first articulated by Jesus.
Matt2239 said
Chris_Hansen said
I cannot recall a single person ever being forced to pay taxes at gunpoint.
And no good works are not evidence of anything. Also deity and god are synonymous.If you don’t pay your real estate taxes, you will have a lien put on your house. If you still don’t resolve it, you will have your house sold to satisfy the debt. If you still don’t leave, men with guns will come and force you off what was once your property.
It’s actually an important concept to remember. The state can seize property and imprison people, which makes it easier to fund things like schools, hospitals, and, of course, armies. Churches that do good through charitable works rely entirely on voluntary contributions.
Government is a dirty business at its core. Removing the power of violence and incarceration from religious leaders has actually granted them a higher morality. It has led to a better type of Christianity, one that adheres to the separation of church and state, as first articulated by Jesus.
Church relies on scamming people.
Matt2239 said
Which parts are faked?
The New Testament was written about 2000 years ago. It contains the stories of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, arguably the most important philosopher in the history of world and God to a few billion Christians. It’s estimated there are 5 billion copies of the New Testament in print today, on a planet with 7 billion people. Which words do you want to change?
The most important part was omitted, IMO. How to do healing, how to do exorcism, how to be able to tell who someone was in a past lifetime, and why reincarnation information of a prior lifetime would be important to know in this lifetime.
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