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Is it possible that Mark copied from Matthew?
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Chris_Hansen

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April 21, 2019 - 11:23 am

I mean sure it is possible… it is equally possible that Martians planted human life here, and altered us to look like and seem related to apes.

But the evidence certainly points against Matthean priority and Martians planting life here.

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brenmcg

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April 21, 2019 - 4:05 pm

Robert said

brenmcg said 

Maybe today but not always. Its principle value was intended to be support for Markan priority. The argument requires that Matthew and Luke used Mark independently which then leads to the necessity for Q.

You’re a little confused if you think the argument required Lukan and Matthean independence. It’s the opposite. Lachmann’s observations suggest their independent use of Mark.   

If Markan priority can be previously established then the observations of order suggest Lukan and Matthean independence.

But if we’re to use the observations of order as evidence for Markan priority then we’re required to assume Lukan and Matthean independence.

Otherwise the observation of order points to Mark being last.

ie Matthew and Luke never agree against Mark. But if Matthew and Luke are dependent and Mark was written first you would expect some mutual agreement against Mark.

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Robert
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April 21, 2019 - 5:14 pm
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brenmcg

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April 22, 2019 - 8:19 am

Robert said
Without broad and in depth knowledge of these exegetical views, it is silly for inexperienced individuals to imagine they can solve the synoptic problem as if it is merely a logical puzzle, perhaps augmented with a smattering of idiosyncratic and shallow views of these later redactors and authors.    

Yes you may be right, but its still fun to try.

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Robert
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April 22, 2019 - 8:25 am
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Robert
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April 22, 2019 - 9:32 pm
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Stephen
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April 24, 2019 - 9:51 am

When you folks get ready to discuss whether or not gJohn knew the synoptics let me know.  Now there’s an interesting discussion!

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godspell

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April 24, 2019 - 1:52 pm

If he knew them, he didn’t like them much. 

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Steefen
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April 25, 2019 - 3:52 am

Stephen said
When you folks get ready to discuss whether or not gJohn knew the synoptics let me know.  Now there’s an interesting discussion!  

Is there an oral tradition of the synoptics vs an oral tradition of the gospel of John?

How could Paul dance all around the Mediterranean world and not bump into these communities?

Did Paul know the synoptics.

Back to your point: Did John know the synoptics?

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IR_2017

136 Posts
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April 25, 2019 - 7:05 am

In the synoptics, Jesus prays and begs God to remove the cup. In John , he doesn’t do any praying or begging , the ones who bow are the soldiers who come to arrest him. 

In John 18:11 he says

“Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”

I wonder if this is a reaction to the begging and praying Jesus in the synoptics? 

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godspell

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April 25, 2019 - 10:30 am

That’s a very interesting point.  John could be taking the Passion story from the synoptics and just making Jesus stronger, more certain, more divine, less human–but still holding on to certain key elements and phrasings.  A process we see happening progressively from Mark onwards, that reaches its apogee in John (not counting much later stories, like the one written by that German nun that inspired Mel Gibson). 

However, all the gospel authors had earlier sources.  There were probably written accounts of the Passion that are now lost.  This is where textual analysis runs into a roadblock–we don’t have all the texts–we can’t know what is original to each gospel.  We can assume many of the things Jesus is quoted as saying were well-known to Christians before any of the gospels were written.  Which is not proof that Jesus really said them, and that goes for all well-known sayings of figures from ancient history.  Traditions take on a life of their own.  John is reacting to earlier versions of the same stories.  He’s trying to make them match up with the Jesus that lives in his imagination.  A divine being, the incarnate word of God, perfect in every respect.  Incapable of fear or doubt.  

I think it’s likely Jesus talking about his coming sacrifice as a cup he must drink from is something that was well-established before Mark wrote his gospel, and the phrasing and context would vary from account to account.  We have strong reason to question the story of what he said in the garden when he prayed–since if everyone was asleep, who could have heard him?  It’s likely to be an extrapolation from surrounding events–an extension of the metaphor from the Last Supper (I see no reason at all to doubt they had a meal together at the Passover, and Jesus would have been saying strange portentous enigmatic things, because he did that a lot.) 

I would go further and say Jesus was probably known to use phrases like that.  He was thinking about the possibility of martyrdom, certainly after the beheading of his teacher John the Baptist.  So it’s just about how each successive writer chooses to incorporate the basic phrase and concept into the story.  It was there from the start, but the original form is unknowable. 

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