MikeyS said
Problem is Josephus was born AFTER the crucifixion and so anything he alluded to with Jesus had to be from biased? other sources. I would have thought he would have wrote lots more about the apostles and the Christian movement over the years but almost nothing. Does this suggest Jesus wasn’t considered as any major influence and just a small town zealot? So different from the holywood movies, the large crowds and judgement by Pilate.   If someone could prove Jesus had no trial or Barrabus was chosen by the people despite the large following he had. Then maybe we could make progress.

Why was AD70 important when the Roman/Jewish wars continued another 50 years? Some people seem to think the whole Jewish nation was destroyed including the temple in AD70 but would the Romans really dismantle the huge temple of Herod stone by stone where each one maybe weighed a ton with one not left upon another? How long would that have taken anyway?

Josephus does not record the crucifixion you think happened before Josephus was born. There was a Samaritan who was slain by Pilate but no Jesus.

The Jewish-Roman wars did not continue another 50 years. Yes, there were two more Jewish Roman Wars (and the time frame is more like 70 years, not 50 years) but they were not non-stop.

Would the Romans really dismantle the huge Temple? Who else do you think did it?

MikeyS said
I would have thought he would have wrote lots more about the apostles and the Christian movement over the years but almost nothing. Does this suggest Jesus wasn’t considered as any major influence and just a small town zealot?

The Wars of the Jews is a more credible book of history than the four gospels in the New Testament.

One of the Jesuses was not considered a major influence. That is why the biblical Jesus is a compilation of at least the following people:

Prince/King Izates (yes, royalty, but did not get crucified)

Em-Manu-El (a reference to Manu royalty related to Edessa; yes, royalty, but non-Jewish figures are relegated to secondary status)

Jesus son of Ananus (we are not going to get a King Jesus out of this person)

Jesus of Gamala (he was not scourged , captured by the Romans, or crucified: Josephus wrote that this high priest was killed by the Idumeans)

~ ~ ~

A reason the gospels must tell us the Temple was destroyed is that the gospels were written under the Flavians (even the Gospel of Mark). Vespasian was over Judea BEFORE the AD70 dating of the Gospel of Mark. To avoid giving Jesus the power of prophecy, the Gospel of Mark with Jesus’ prophecy of the destruction of the Temple would have to be published after the Temple was destroyed or once Titus began making it known that he would take the Temple down.

The gospels could hold up as a historical fiction of the first 35 years of the Common Era without jumping forward in time to AD70.

“The Oral Tradition” and the gospels would be more respected by scholars as accounts of the first 35 years if it did not jump forward in time to AD70 via giving Jesus prophetic statements. Jesus is a compilation of men, not all of whom would have made the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple. Prince Izates, “the only begotten son” of King Monobazus and Queen Helena did not deliver the prophecy during or before the famine of 47.

It is highly apparent that pessimists would have chimed in once the Jewish Revolt became an inevitability and this was after the death of King Izates and Queen Helena in the 50s.

~ ~ ~

Steefen said

Steefen said
And we must read Wars of the Jews by Josephus in our Bible studies, in our institutions of higher learning, in our institutions of religions (Christian and Muslim), and the general reader should have the major points of Wars of the Jews as common knowledge.

If Jesus did not have the power of prophecy, then maybe the Gospels jump ahead in time to the Jewish Revolt and returning to the time of Pontius Pilate is just a ruse.

Use prophecy as a literary device to move the gospel accounts forward in time when

1) Jerusalem is surrounded by armies (armies of civil war, rebel help from beyond the Euphrates–likely through the Manu royalty of Queen Helena and Edessa–and the Roman army)

2) Romans do capture a Jewish zealot on the Mount of Olives (the biblical Jesus was a purist and Reza Aslan does say the biblical Jesus was a zealot)

3) the Temple was destroyed

4) Jesus of Ananus was scourged by a Roman procurator

5) as written in the Life of Josephus, our attention is drawn to three crucifixions where one survives

Order can be improved like below and you can add another item.

Use prophecy as a literary device to move the gospel accounts forward in time when

1) Jerusalem is surrounded by armies (armies of civil war, rebel help from beyond the Euphrates–likely through the Manu royalty of Queen Helena and King Monobazus, the royalty of Edessa–and the Roman army)

2) Romans do capture a Jewish zealot on the Mount of Olives (the biblical Jesus was a purist and Reza Aslan does say the biblical Jesus was a zealot)

3) Jesus of Ananus was scourged by a Roman procurator

4) as written in the Life of Josephus, our attention is drawn to three crucifixions where one survives

5) an earthquake occurs
(In the historical account of Josephus, the earthquake occurs within 24 hours of the death of high priest Jesus of Gamala; in the biblical account, the earthquake occurs within 24 hours of the death of the biblical Jesus. There is in the former: earthquake then death; in the latter: death then earthquake.)

6) the Temple was destroyed

4) is revised to include being taken down by Joseph (Jospeh ben Matthias, Josephus in Life of Josephus, and Joseph of Arimathea)

The world-famous length of time Jesus needs to resurrect is based on Hosea 6: 1-2 which challenges the notion that Jesus was not dead but in a coma or under medical care until he could exit the tomb, making it the empty tomb. Even then, Jesus is not recognizable. Even in two – three days, he would have been limping.

Steefen

The world-famous length of time Jesus needs to resurrect is based on Hosea 6: 1-2 which challenges the notion that Jesus was not dead but in a coma or under medical care until he could exit the tomb, making it the empty tomb. Even then, Jesus is not recognizable. Even in two – three days, he would have been limping.

Correction

The world-famous length of time Jesus needs to resurrect is based on Hosea 6: 1-2.

This challenges the notion that Jesus was dead and did not resurrect until Easter Sunday. This is a challenge because the authors may not have been writing events as they happened but they were bringing Hebrew Scripture forward into an historical fiction.

Hosea 6: 1-2

Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

First, this opens the probability that with the gospels being written after Vespasian became governor of Judea, Hosea 6: 1-2 needed to be re-iterated. With Matthew, Luke, and John being written after AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple, life, personified as the Lord, had torn the Jewish people, had wounded the Jewish people but the resurrection story of Jesus would be a reiteration of Hosea 6: 1-2, that the Jews would live before the Lord of Moses and David.

John 2: 19

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Second, that Hosea 6: 1-2 supports the notion that Jesus is a literary creation for the sake of reiterating Hebrew Scripture, be it a retelling of the Moses story or referencing Jesus to other Hebrew Scripture touch points, challenges the notion that Jesus was actually dead after his crucifixion. The crucifixion of three men and the one who lived after crucifixion was taken down from the cross by Joseph (as mentioned above) already challenges the notion that Jesus was actually dead beyond a Near Death Experience and beyond the Lazarus Syndrome (Lazarus syndrome or autoresuscitation after failed cardiopulmonary resuscitation is the spontaneous return of circulation after failed attempts at resuscitation. Its occurrence has been noted in medical literature at least 38 times since 1982.) Hosea 6: 1-2 is about bandaging not resurrecting the dead, dead beyond NDE and Lazarus syndrome.

Jesus was not dead but in a coma or under medical care until he could exit the tomb, making it the empty tomb. Even then, Jesus is not recognizable. Even in two – three days, he would have been limping.

About Jesus not being recognizable, see the thread:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

Steefen said
One of the historical Jesuses, Jesus, son of Ananus, did not begin prophesying the woes of the tribulation of the Jewish Revolt until four years before the war began. That would be in the year 62 C.E. That Jesus began prophesying the woes of the tribulation of the Jewish Revolt in the year 30, no later than the year 36, may not be correct.

One could say Jesus had a very pessimistic outlook given vibes of rejection on Palm Sunday. I think the biblical Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple when he was leaving Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. I’ll have to check. If he had assessed lack of support and lack of respect for the Temple by Temple Authorities (not the people who waved palm branches for him but the ones who made it so commercial), he could have been sour grapes about “their” Temple and uttered its demise.

I’m looking at the Gospel of Matthew. It was not when he was leaving the Temple on Palm Sunday. It appears to be when he was leaving the Temple on Monday, after he had had a rough time with Temple authorities – chapters 23 and 24.