Robert said
If you dig into the footnotes of John P. Meier’s treatment of Jesus as a healer/exorcist, you will see that he is not averse to the idea that these were potentially explained as the power of suggestion by an impressive, charismatic religious leader.

  

I accept that is directed at the 12 healings and the 13 exorcisms.

Robert said
If you dig into the footnotes of John P. Meier’s treatment of Jesus as a healer/exorcist, you will see that he is not averse to the idea that these were potentially explained as the power of suggestion by an impressive, charismatic religious leader.

  

If a person digs into the footnotes of Meier’s treatment of Jesus as a miracle worker, one will see that he is not averse to the idea that these were potentially explained as the power of suggestion by an impressive, charismatic religious leader.

Steve Campbell, attendee at the Highland Park United Method Church – Academy: The Jesus of History
Luke Chapter 17, verse 19 does not already admit this with the miracle referenced at that verse?

“Your faith has made you well.”

Tue. Feb. 8th, 2011 / Highland Park United Methodist Church [on the edge of SMU’s campus]
The Academy: “The Jesus of History”

Of the first century figures we know of, Jesus is unique in performing exorcisms. Josephus mentions

John the Baptist

Judas the Galilean

Theudas

The Egyptian

Hanina ben Dosa

but none were exorcists.

Steefen

Hanina ben Dosa: first century BCE resident of Galilee, pupil of Johanan ben Zakkai. Hanina was a scholar and miracle-worker, had great piety and suffered great poverty.

The Academy: “The Jesus of History”

Being an exorcist was not part of any Old Testament prophecy or expectation in Israel. Nothing is gained by saying that Jesus was an exorcist.

There is no reason to say Jesus was an exorcist unless it was hisotrically true.

Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy (self-published, well-edited, well-reviewed by professional reviewers)

I disagree. According to Josephus, the rebels were the demons. General Vespasian’s diplomacy exorcised the demons of Jewish Revolt against Rome.

Would there be a prophecy or expectation not to fight against the Roman Empire after Herod the Great had such a good relationship with Rome and after Roman engineering improved the lives of Jews?

Tue. Feb. 8th, 2011 / Highland Park United Methodist Church [on the edge of SMU’s campus]
The Academy: “The Jesus of History”

Jesus’ third form of ministry was symbolic acts.

As Theudas dividing water was a symbolic act and as The Egyptian marching around Jerusalem like Jericho was a symbolic act, the way Jesus entered Jerusalem was a symbolic act. No one since Jeremiah has had as many symbolic acts as the John the Baptist and Jesus team. Jesus continued some of the symbolic acts of John the Baptist–going into the wilderness, for example. (The wilderness was the traditional place where the Jewish people have met and experienced God.)

A symbolic act unique to Jesus was calling the 12. By choosing 12, Jesus was fulfilling a hope for the restoration of Israel, the ingathering of Israel. There had not been twelve tribes for 700 years.

Gather all the tribes of Jacob and give them their inheritance as at the beginning. – Sirach 36: 13-16

He will gather you from all the nations among whom you have been scattered. All the Israelites who are saved in those days and are truly mindful of God will be gathered together. – Tobit 13: 5; 14: 7

And he shall gather together a holy people whom he shall lead in righteousness. – Psalms of Solomon 17: 28

Steefen
Psalms of Solomon, a pseudepigraphal work (not in any biblical canon) comprising 18 psalms that were originally written in Hebrew, although only Greek and Syriac translations survive.

Tue. Feb. 8th, 2011 / Highland Park United Methodist Church [on the edge of SMU’s campus]
The Academy: “The Jesus of History”

Like prophets of ancient Israel, Jesus was doing highly symbolic acts that were designed to communicate a profound message, acts that could not be missed by his contemporaries.

Robert
Where does Josephus speak of the rebels as demons being exorcised by Vespasian’s diplomacy?

Steefen
This will be a two part answer: 1) Douglas Michael King and 2) Steve Campbell (if I can easily get to my research books in storage I will reply. I thought it was in my book, but a search on demon did not bring it up.

Paraphrasing Douglas Michael King posting on the Facebook Group, “Daily atheist quote” (no spaces)
Titus is recorded in Josephus telling the Jews to “repent.” Just like Jesus did so often. When reading the gospels as part Roman satire, it becomes clear Titus wants the Jews to repent for rebelling against Vespasian, himself, Rome.

Jesus and Titus also had remarkably similar experiences in Gadara.

Mark 5:9 tells the story of Jesus casting out a demon named “legion, for we are many” to a herd of swine that ran into the River Jordan and drowned.

In Josephus’s The War of the Jews, 4, 6, and 7, Josephus documents Titus in Gadara.
General Titus ran into a legion of Jewish militants called Sicariii

Steefen
The answer is becoming apparent where Josephus is setting up the equation:

Jewish militant rebels = demons in possession of Jews who need to repent to be saved!

Paraphrasing Douglas Michael King posting on the Facebook Group, “Daily atheist quote” (no spaces)
Continuing:
General Titus ran into a legion of Jewish militants called Sicariii who after being attacked with Roman darts began to run around like wild animals until they drowned in the River Jordan.
There were so many dead bodies [dead swine that were possessed by a legion of demons] floating in the river the army could not cross it.

Josephus said from one head this wickedness came forth. The first group affected a second group [possession] that became just as bad. No doubt, swine was the way the Flavians thought of the rebels.

Josephus speaks of a rebel leader hiding in the tombs: Matthew 8:28 the demons in two possessed men come out from hiding in the tombs.

Steefen
Douglas’ answer should suffice, but I want to answer the question. So, I have lecture writing, recording, and editing to do, and physical exercise. I will try to get to my storage unit. So I can answer from my studies.

Robert said
I’m familiar with the Roman interpretation of the legion of pigs in Mark 5, but so far you haven’t indicated where Josephus speaks of the rebels as demons being exorcised by Vespasian’s diplomacy.

  

What is the source of “the Roman interpretation” of the legion of pigs in Mark 5?

= = =

Josephus spoke of rebels as demons in what you call the Roman interpretation.

Vespasian was sent to put down the rebellion. Vespasian, before the Battle of Galilee, sent a representative on a diplomatic mission to Jesus of Galilee to negotiate surrender. Jesus rejected that diplomacy by capturing the horses of that diplomat. Vespasian’s diplomacy had worked before: those who were rebels were no longer rebels after an encounter with Rome’s diplomacy for surrender. As with Jesus and the Battle of Galilee, a rejection of being talked out of rebellion/revolt resulted in military defeat. Josephus, himself, by offer from Rome, was exorcised of his demon of wicked rebellion: Josephus denounced his opposition to Rome and joined Vespasian and Titus.

“the [root] quickly drives away those called demons, which are no other than the spirits of the wicked, that enter into men that are alive and kill them, unless they can obtain some help against them..” – Josephus

Those who raised a revolt against Rome were wicked. The spirit of militant messianism was wicked and demonic. Ananus and Jesus of Gamala, two high priests were killed. When earlier Jewish Revolt leaders took over Jerusalem, they cut off the food supply leading to starvation and cannibalism. That certainly is acting with a spirit of wickedness. Emperor Nero sent Vespasian to Palestine (from Galilee to Judah) to put down the spirit of rebellion. That spirit of wicked rebellion certainly did kill those who were possessed with militant messianism because first, it killed so many people first in the Jewish Civil War, second, with the starvation for which the rebels were responsible, it started the fire in the Temple Judaism the day before General Titus was going to start the destruction of the Temple, it killed those with the demonic spirit of revolt at the Battle of Galilee, it killed those with the demonic spirit of revolt in Jerusalem.

In conclusion, look at what I wrote.

= = =

Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy (self-published, well-edited, well-reviewed by professional reviewers)

I disagree. According to Josephus, the rebels were the demons. General Vespasian’s diplomacy exorcised the demons of Jewish Revolt against Rome.

= = =

The rebels were wicked, therefore, the rebels were demons because demons are people with spirits of wickedness.

The sentence is not “According to Josephus, the rebels were the demons and according to Josephus General Vespasian’s diplomacy exorcised the demons of Jewish revolt against Rome.” Josephus provided the ingredients. The metaphor that Rome diplomatically or violently exorcised the demon of revolt is provided by history.

I think you’ve misunderstood. I asked you for a citation of where Josephus speaks of the rebels as demons being exorcised by Vespasian’s diplomacy. Josephus does not comment upon the story in Mark 5.

Steefen

I have not misunderstood anything. Re-answering your question is unnecessary.

Jesus was not at all unique in being an exorcist. He himself refers to other Jewish exorcists in Mt 12,27/Lk 11,19: “But if I cast out demons by means of Beelzeboul, by means of whom are your sons casting out (demons)?” Josephus also mentions the Jewish practice of exorcisms, as developed by Solomon but continuing into his own day, speaking of exorcisms done by Eleazar before Vespasian (Antiq 8,45-48)

Rev. Marcum, Associate Pastor / HPUMC
Of the first century figures we know of, Jesus is unique in performing exorcisms

Steefen
The verse speaks of generic others, not figures we know. What are their names and their bios? What are their individual identities?

We know of refers to we Christians who read the bible, not we Christians who read the bible and the works of Josephus.

Christians do not remember stories of Solomon casting out demons.

The story of Eleazar is probably not historical. I do not remember (or maybe I do). Eleazaar was captured by a soldiers riding a horse who picked him up by his ankle (an impossible feat to pick up a man by his ankle). That may be part of the story you are referencing.