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Jarek

936 Posts
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April 22, 2025 - 6:50 pm

Revelation
At 5:00 AM I went to the airport. On the spot I bought sandwiches and 2 coffees which I brought to my wife. I went to the bathroom. I turned on the water. I looked in the mirror I said out loud. Old and Foolish. That’s it. Nothing more. Revelations are overrated.
I have just returned from a bike tour along the Rhine. From Mainz to Cologne. Nice trip.

Marcion shortened the gospel of Luke. Not for theological reasons. He needed a kerygma for his missionaries. Selected content for the first contact with pagans. This is how the *Ev came into being. It was an aquisition content selected from the bigger one fot non-belivers. For belivers Marcionist congregations used the entire literary heritage of early Christianity for maintanance purposes. *Ev became a pretext for accusations from competitors.

B. Ward Powers wrote book The Progressive Publication of Matthew: An Explanation of the Writing of the Synoptic Gospels. He was right about Gospel of Mark. First contact content to increase success ratio of missionary aquisition. A dramatised selection of moving scenes, written in the language of the audience by a professional theatre writer. Based on Matthew and Luke.. Kerygma for unbelivers.

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Porphyry

1852 Posts
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2
April 22, 2025 - 6:57 pm

That first paragraph really had me hooked. Then you got on to Marcion. You should try writing fiction.

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Jarek

936 Posts
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April 23, 2025 - 1:22 am

Powers’ book can be found at libgen.is. If Meta, Apple, Google can use these resources, why not others…
Additionally, it is worth watching David Pallmann’s presentation.

And I am old and stupid, because I forgot how I prepared pro-sales materials for various sales channels regarding the functions of mobile phones and the network services offered by the operator 40 years ago. How to make specialized leaflets no longer than 500 words for each market segment about the same model of Nokia from several dozen pages of instructions.

Once, under the influence of Bart’s lectures on Luke, I accepted his thesis about the limited edition and the later full edition.
Harnack was right – Marcion truncated the gospel. But not for the reasons he attributed to him.

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Robert
7123 Posts
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4
April 25, 2025 - 12:16 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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April 25, 2025 - 4:05 pm

Revelation is a powerful experience, although it doesn’t look like much from the outside. Some guy is standing there looking in the mirror with the sound of water from the tap. Then he goes out, takes a coffee and is surprised that it’s cold. Then he notices that his wife is looking at him, clearly pissed off.

Bart decided that Luke wrote *Ev and then added the first 2 chapters, which made sense because Luke 3 begins with “In the 15th year of reign…” which looks like the beginning of the earlier *Ev.

But in all reconstructions of *Ev, only the first sentence of Luke 3,1 is taken from the entire Luke 3, and then there is a jump to Luke 4,31. And this cut-off is the strangest.

Marcion threw out the text from Luke to create a simple gospel for the people and for missionaries coming from the people. His editorial decisions do not have the character of some theology but of a business practice to focus on the content most expected in the first contact.
Powers noticed the same in the case of Mark. Mark was created as such a text of first contact with the people – highly dramatized, written in the dialect of the poor, with theatrical elements.
Powers was an apologist who wrote a great book that fit the criteria of mass communication.

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Robert
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April 26, 2025 - 4:07 am
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Jarek

936 Posts
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April 26, 2025 - 3:47 pm

Bart was wrong. *Ev begins with Luke 3:1 but that’s all from the third chapter. Immediately after that comes the text from the fourth chapter. All reconstructions of Marcion’s gospel show that there were no first 3 and 1/3 chapters.
Marcion truncated Luke for practical reasons so that missionaries would know what to tell a pagan audience. Mark served the same purpose.
There was no protoevangelium or q. The gospels of Luke and Matthew were written at the same time. Mark and *Ev are later abbreviations of them

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Robert
7123 Posts
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April 27, 2025 - 12:35 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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April 27, 2025 - 2:04 pm

??? I didn’t say anything like that. The second half is my conclusions. I just said that Bart was wrong when he said that Luke added two chapters to Ev at the beginning and that’s how the canonical Gospel of Luke came into being.

All the Gospels pretended to be texts from the past through false authorial attribution.

The problem is that we can set up any arrangement 2SH, 2GH, Jerusalem School H, Multisource and it still doesn’t work. But if you throw out *Ev and Mark as material for pagan acquisitions, then the matter is simple. The first were the Gospels with birth narratives written in parallel.

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Robert
7123 Posts
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April 27, 2025 - 3:12 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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11
April 27, 2025 - 3:36 pm

Have fun
t=1528

From the begining texts were treated as “memoires of the disciples”

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Robert
7123 Posts
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12
April 27, 2025 - 4:47 pm
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Jarek

936 Posts
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13
April 27, 2025 - 5:13 pm

I am not missing anything, dear Robert. This is not a matter of a specific reconstruction, but of all reconstructions since the 19th century. Bart simply assumed that the first two chapters were missing, but really 3 and 1/3 were missing. He was wrong.

For Bart, Marcion uses the limited edition of Luke because that was what was distributed in his circles.

I maintain that Harnack was right. Marcion cut out entire sections of text from Luke. Not for the needs of theology. For the needs of missionary activity, to show missionaries what to focus on. Simple sales training. Powers called it the kerygma for the Gentiles, as opposed to the didache for the faithful. Powers wrote this about the gospel of Mark, which I extrapolated to *Ev.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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14
April 27, 2025 - 5:23 pm

Steefen:
The canonical gospels are not memories of the disciples.
How can the disciples remember the resurrection of Lazarus in one gospel but totally miss it in the other gospels as if it didn’t happen?

How can Luke refuse to remember Jesus dying as atonement for our sins.
Luke refuses to “remember” what Paul remembered and what Mark wrote? You say, Mark wrote the “memories of the disciples.”

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Porphyry

1852 Posts
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15
April 27, 2025 - 5:36 pm

You say, Mark wrote the “memories of the disciples.”

Jarek said they were “treated as the memories of the disciples”; not that they actually were.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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16
April 27, 2025 - 5:41 pm

Besides,

Why would Marcion use Paul’s friend Luke’s gospel but not his Part II, Acts of the Apostles?

Was it not written?

If Acts of the Apostles was written in the second century, why did Paul’s friend didn’t write it when Paul was alive?

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Robert
7123 Posts
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17
April 27, 2025 - 5:48 pm
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Steefen
7786 Posts
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April 27, 2025 - 5:53 pm

Porphyry, your point is moot.
I know what Jarek said.

Jarek,
From the beginning texts were treated as “memories of the disciples.”

Steefen
Mark would have been Oral Traditions of the memories of Peter.
Luke would have been Oral Traditions of the memories of Paul, including what Paul knew of the Oral Traditions of the disciples.

You’re bring up an imaginary distinction:

The gospels were memories of the disciples.
vs
The gospels were not memories of the disciples.

Even Matthew would be relying on his memory.

Now are you going to go with the gospels were memories of the disciples or are you going to agree with me that the gospels were historical fiction requiring the gospels to be partially made up?

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Porphyry

1852 Posts
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19
April 27, 2025 - 6:10 pm

No, it’s not moot Steefen. The distinction might become moot, for the purposes of this discussion, if Jarek clarified that he thought the gospels were not only reported to be but actually were the records of the memories of the disciples.

In any event, I’m not bringing up imaginary distinctions: There is a very big difference between saying the gospels were received as the memories of the disciples and saying they actually were the memories of the disciples.

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Steefen
7786 Posts
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20
April 27, 2025 - 6:19 pm

the gospels were received as the memories of the disciples

vs.

the gospels were the memories of the disciples

means what?

the gospels were received as the memories of the disciples but they were not the memories of the disciples

vs.

the gospels were the memories of the disciples

V V V V V V

Well, we are right back where I told you we would be with a dichotomy that is not moot:

the gospels were historical fiction

vs

the gospels were memories of the disciples and received as memories of the disciples

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