Question 1
1st then 3rd, then 1st Person Son of Man/Messiah?
Question 2
What would be the Diplomacy between the Son of Man and the Roman Emperor be like?
We get 12 caesars.
How many Sons of Man would we get in 100 years? A son of man who never dies, ever?
A son of man who will end THE WORLD, so the question doesn’t matter?
TRIED and true emperors
Son of Man as ruler of Rome, Parthia, India, and Han China?
And look at these civilizations/empires:
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keywords=emperor+of+rome+mary+beard&qid=1700792375&sprefix=Emperor+by+%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1
No, the Jewish Messiah was ethnocentric, unable to see beyond Judea to the existential and political realities of Rome, Parthia, India, Han China and the Americas, ET CETERA.
The end is coming not just for Judea, but
Rome
Parthia
India
China
the Americas
This is related to the theological problem of extrapolating the local god of Judea to a monotheistic god of earth, our solar system, our galaxy, and the creator of the universe–multiverse, even.
The Jewish Messiah was ethnocentric
unable to see beyond Judea and the United States which copy-catted Jesus’ end of the world “coming” experience.
Untried. Untested.
Why take on JEWISH Apocalypticism without the Son of Man being tried and proven triumphantly true in AD 70, 1933-1945, Fall 2023, 115-117, 132-136, 636-637?*
-Historical Context and Accuracy
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
* The Islamic history of Jerusalem begins with the conquest of the city by Caliph Umar in 635 (or 638). Umar had been one of the prophet Muhammad’s closest companions and served as his second successor (khalifa) after Abu Bakr.
H-where would the Son of Man live?
Caesarea Martina ? ? ?
Would he surpass the building trophies of Herod the Great?
Tried and True: give us just 10 years of the Son of Man in his gl-l-ory.
We will see the Son of Man in his GLORY ? ?
Doing what?
Did he persuade ROME to control the abuses of its governors in Judea? ? ?
… and AVOID the Jewish Revolt ? ? ?
and AVOID the Bar Kokhba Revolt ? ? ?
Did this Jewish Apocalyptic Son of Man in his GLORY teach peace to the rebels who later created Civil War in Judea and took over the Temple, my Father’s House of Prayer?
No.
Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
= = =
What is this?
I am the Son of God AND you will see [me and/OR another] sitting at the right hand of the Power coming with the clouds of HEAVEN.
And there will be legions of angels led by archangels on these clouds.
Are we going to see the Son of God WITH the Son of Man at the time of the glorious kingdom promised in Jewish Apocalypticism?
How will the Son of Man honor the Son of God/the Blessed ONe who came before him but was thrown under the chariot and crucified by Rome by the urging of Jewish authorities under a God who didn’t prevent it from happening?
Does study make one an atheist?
How did this hold water to become a belief in the first place? ! ! !
I’ll let Matthew tell you something you, gaslighting, already know.
NET Bible
So he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
NET Bible
But she came and bowed down before him and said, “Lord, help me!”
NET Bible
“It is not right to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs,” he said.
NET Bible
“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
So the Son of Man is coming.
What event planning is going to happen?
Who was to be hired?
Who is going to join the Son of God in greeting the Son of Man?
What are the logistics of separating the people from the in crowd (in the Son of Man’s kingdom) vs the out crowd (those who do not make it into the Son of Man’s kingdom)?
Your side issue has been addressed by the verses in Matthew.
No further discussion needed. We agree to disagree and have been doing so for years.
Jesus
Before some of you taste death, you will see the Son of Man coming in glory, his kingdom on earth.
Your kingdom come, and God’s hallowed will–part of that will is a kingdom and Son of Man king–be done on earth
(as it is in heaven).
Steefen
This is prayed to this day, this false prophecy, this mistaken and unrealistic prophecy.
Holly Savior and Messiah, Jesus, did what to fully stop
AD 70
1933-1945
Fall 2023 (Gaza – Israel)
115-117
132-136
636-637?*?
Superman Messiah Jesus helps the lost sheep of Israel first and then US.
Well, he didn’t do his job and can’t get to anybody else.
The “dogs” and other pets just have to wait.
= = =
There is no evidence that the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven was coming into the Roman Empire at Judea in a practical and coherent way. It was a Jewish Apocalyptic false/mistaken hope! Catch reality.
We have the daily lives of the Caesars. Coming into their Empire, not Judaea’s Empire, would the Son of Man be received by the Jews of Jewish Apocalypticism? How would he be received by Jewish authorities and Roman governors in Syria and Judea? How would he be received by Agrippa I, Claudius, Agrippa II, Nero? Or forget plans for this non-event, dismiss it all.
Think Jesus’ vision through to conclusion.
See the importance of the ado about a false/mistaken prophet, a false/mistaken messiah.
Scholar Mary Beard, has given us the reality of emperor-priests
who would have been the men the Son of Man would have had to have shown diplomacy.
Flesh it out.
But that cannot be done because it was a failed/mistaken hypothesis, on the lips of a composite character of historical fiction.
Dr. Ehrman,
Given:
Mt 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Do not tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.”
Mk 14:61-63
The high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes.
Where would the Son of Man live? Caesarea Martina? Would he surpass Herod the Great as a builder? What event planning will there be? What are the logistics of separating the people from the in crowd (in the Son of Man’s kingdom) from the out crowd (those who do not make it into the Son of Man’s kingdom)?
Coming into the Roman empire, not Judea’s Empire, the Son of Man is received by whom? He cannot be received by Jewish religious authorities since they have torn their clothes twice in disagreeing sadness (first with Jesus, then with Stephen, the martyr). Would Agrippa I, Emperor Claudius, Agrippa II, Nero and Seneca, or Vespasian have a diplomatic meeting about what the Son of Man was going to do?
The remaining 11 disciples and loyal women could not be the only people staffing the glorious entry of the Son of Man.
So, not only did it not happen, the practicalities for it to manifest were not present. Jesus was more interested in recruiting Paul for evangelizing to the Gentiles than recruiting Paul for the glorious return of the Son of Man.
Is this a failure/embarrassment of Oral Tradition and a failure of the credibility of Jesus’ pronouncements–not only did the prophecy of a celestial being coming to earth not come true but no preparations were attempted to try to make it come true?
* * * * * Edited down to under 200 words
Dr. Ehrman,
Where would the Son of Man live and for how long? What were the logistics of separating people from who would and would not enter the Son of Man’s kingdom? Would the empire let that happen to a client kingdom?
Would Titus, Claudius, Nero and Seneca, or Vespasian even have diplomatic meetings with the Son of Man about what he was going to do?
He cannot be received by Jewish religious authorities since they tore their clothes twice over the matter (first with Jesus, then with Stephen, the martyr).
The remaining 11 disciples and loyal women could not be the only people staffing the glorious return of the Son of Man. Paul implied Jesus needed evangelizing to the Gentiles more than people to work the return of the Son of Man.
Not only did the prophecy of a celestial being coming to earth not happen but the practicalities for it to manifest were not present.
It’s one thing for Jesus to make a false/mistaken prophecy (credibility). It is another thing not to speak with authority to make things happen.
Was the manifestation of the Son of Man inside of the Roman Empire impractical?
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* * * * * Edited down to under 200 words
Dr. Ehrman,
Where would the Son of Man live and for how long? What were the logistics of separating people from who would and would not enter the Son of Man’s kingdom? Would the empire let that happen to a client kingdom?
Would Titus, Claudius, Nero and Seneca, or Vespasian even have diplomatic meetings with the Son of Man about what he was going to do?
He cannot be received by Jewish religious authorities since they tore their clothes twice over the matter (first with Jesus, then with Stephen, the martyr).
The remaining 11 disciples and loyal women could not be the only people staffing the glorious return of the Son of Man. Paul implied Jesus needed evangelizing to the Gentiles more than people to work the return of the Son of Man.
Not only did the prophecy of a celestial being coming to earth not happen but the practicalities for it to manifest were not present.
It’s one thing for Jesus to make a false/mistaken prophecy (credibility). It is another thing not to speak with authority to make things happen.
Was the manifestation of the Son of Man inside of the Roman Empire impractical?
Steefen
= = = = = = = = =
Bart D.E.
I’m assuming these are rhetorical questions!
Mark 14 vs 46
Jesus is seized and arrested.
vs 55
The Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so they could put him to death
vs 60
The high priest asked Jesus, Are you not going to answer the testimonies made against you?
vs 61
R U the Messiah, Son of the Blessed One?
vs 62
I am.
You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
vs 63
The high priest tore his clothes.
Interpretation
now you have arrested me
answering to you, determining my fate (a foregone conclusion),
You are wrong for doing this to me, but the table will turn
you will see at the right hand of God the celestial being who has been the subject of my ministry.
Christians expect Jesus to be in the right in this last confrontation with Jewish authorities and he will be justified.
This prophecy will come true as will the prophecy of the Temple being dismantled and the prophecy of Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
Those were not rhetorical questions. At this fine moment in the gospel story, Christians stand with Jesus against the Sanhedrin.
The questions are the cost of their belief/faith being justified/vindicated against those who condemned Jesus.
– The diplomatic realities of the biblical Son of Man and the Roman Empire are impractical.
– Practical matters of hosting a celestial, Jewish Son of Man have no plans or staff for execution.
Why did the high priest rip his clothes when Jesus and Stephen mentioned seeing the Son of Man at the right hand of God?
A.1.
Jewish authorities did not want Jesus’ vision
Jesus presented it as his final victory: you may arrest me and turn me over to Rome for execution but I will be vindicated and you will see me vindicated before you die, some of you. You will be judged guilty for the outcome of your scheming to have me killed.
The high priest is sad for the retribution due him and the Sanhedrin at large.
OR
A.2.
The high priest and Sanhedrin are not afraid of Jesus’ prophecy, they know it is not going to happen that way (TOO unrealistic). They are sad Apocalypticism has developed to this extent. So much can go wrong holding this belief. The Roman Empire will not accept or tolerate it.
OR
B.
Jesus has already received the parable of the Wicked Tenants and knows the son of man of Jewish Apocalypticism will be replaced by a Gentile son of man.
Destroy Jesus, a candidate for the hero of Jewish Apocalypticism, then Jewish Apocalypticism (which gave people inspiration and hope) is also destroyed.
God leaves a Roman Empire’s client kingdom for the Roman Empire and/or Gentile client kingdoms, with no hope of return.
The high priest is sad because a Gentile son of man is at the right hand of the Power and the hundreds of years relationship with God is gone.
So, no, Dr. Ehrman, these are not rhetorical questions, this is a former believer looking at the final act of The Gospel, knowing The Gospel is a Shakespearean tragedy. The ministry of the Gospel which in Act 1 was so promising that Jesus told John the Baptist, wait for no one else ends with the death of the awaited one, the abandonment of the people by God, and ultimately, with the Battle of Galilee lost, the Temple and the city destroyed, and two more Jewish-Roman wars won by Rome.
Lean towards interpretation A or B? Do you choose B?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert