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Misquoting John part 2
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Henry2667

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July 23, 2020 - 10:18 pm

John 8:58 before Abraham, I AM

John 18:6 Jesus said, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground

Attempting to identify Jesus with God, some say that ἐγὼ εἰμί (e·goʹ ei·miʹ) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression  aniʹ huʼ, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man as in 1 Chronicles 21:17.

 

Further attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Exodus 3:14 (LXX) which reads: ᾿Εγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (E·goʹ ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.” This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Exodus 3:14 is different from the expression in John 8:58. Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures Jehovah and Jesus are never identified as being the same person.​

So what is the point of view of the writer of the Gospel of John in the use of (e·goʹ ei·miʹ) in John 8:58 and 18:6? Ultimately we find the answer within the context of those chapters.

8:58 “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, (I have been)”, this is evident by the use of (e·goʹ ei·miʹ) in the following chapter, John 9:9 “Some were saying: “This is he.” Others were saying: “No, but he looks like him.” The man kept saying: “e·goʹ ei·miʹ.”

18:6 “However, when Jesus said to them, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.”

 The context is key to determining the use of language. 18:7 “So he asked them again: “Whom are you looking for?” They said: “Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ.”8 Jesus answered: “I told you that I am he. So if you are looking for me, let these men go.”

Many scholars (including professor Ehrman) would have you believe that the writer is making a case for a higher Christology by the use of  e·goʹ ei·miʹ and that is why in verse 6 “they drew back and fell to the ground.”

Yet again the context does not agree with that premise, 18:12 ”Then the soldiers and the military commander and the officers of the Jews seized Jesus and bound him.”

Are we to believe that the soldiers ,” drew back and fell to the ground.” Because they believed that Jesus was God… and then went ahead and arrested God?  The context clearly disproves such claim.

 

John 12:45  Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father

Anyone who takes this as a literal term will need to explain the following texts:

John 1:8 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

John 6:46 “Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father.”

John 5:19 “Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.”

Is it safe to assume that the Gospel of John allows us to understand 12:45 in a way that Jesus reflected his father’s qualities in such a perfect way because he learned from his father before becoming a man? And within this context seeing Jesus is LIKE seeing the Father?

 

John 10:30 Me and the Father are one

Is the writer of John saying that Jesus and the Father are one person?

John 14:28 “You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.”

John 20:17 “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

John 17:22 “I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

This last text is key in determining the Christology of the Gospel of John. According to the writer the Glory of Christ is not unique to himself. This Glory is also shared by his imperfect disciples. Now of course the Gospel of John assigns a higher Christology compared to the other gospels but this is by simply default . John is the only Gospel that speaks about the preexistent nature and afterlife of Christ. The other Gospels mention his resurrection but do not go in detail.

What would be fair is to allow the writer explain his Christology to us…So let us listen to what he has to say John 20:31 “But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God”

If the Christology was to make us believe that Jesus was in the same playing field as the YHWH, then he would of told us right here in 20:31. His audience or readers in the late first century are mostly recently converted Christians from minor Asia who have knowledge of Jewish theology and most importantly the term SON OF GOD within that theology.

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Robert
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July 23, 2020 - 11:21 pm
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Henry2667

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July 24, 2020 - 2:00 am

Not just the prolog but the entire Gospel claims Jesus to be a god of some kind but throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures Jehovah and Jesus are never identified as being the same person. 

Different sources throughout the second half of the first century all claim that even though Jesus existed before the beginning of time and was an instrument of Creation he is still inferior to the Father

Colossians 1:15 Jesus is put in the category of Creation. Creed from the 60s AD

Phillipians 2:6 Before becoming a man Jesus never considered to be equal with God. Creed from the same time period.

John 14:28 Jesus claims that the Father is greater than himself. Creed from the 90s AD

Revelation 1:6 The ressurected Jesus has a God above him. Creed from the same time period.

Of course there are many more texts that form a pattern of evidence that should be very clear to the christology in the first century.

Getting back to the argument, you are saying that the author of John 18:12 wants you to believe that Jesus is God and that the soldiers knew of this and still went ahead to arrest him? 

The context and the reply of Jesus should speak for itself…

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Robert
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July 24, 2020 - 6:19 am
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