Hi Bart,
Sorry for my poor English, but I am French and nobody’s perfect ! I read your books with much interest, and I am currently reading “God’s problem” which I find very interesting, although involving quite a lot of redundancies (in brief, it could bit a little bit shorter).
Although I am not à Jew (nobody’s perfect again !) I read in this book a bold assessment of the number 666 being the translitteration of NERO CAESAR in hebrew characters. I am very sorry, but I can absolutely NOT come to that value (using the gematria technique), whatever substitudes used (as you probably now, there are no explicit voyels in hebrew, and how to represent for instance the E of CAESAR ? among other issues ? and is the A a mute gutural aleph ? and so on …
I am surprised to find out such a weak statement in a book otherwise standing on firm foundations.
I do not expect to get an answer to this question, but I would highly appreciate one.
Kind regards,
C. Bellières
CH-1024 Ecublens
(Switzerland)
See ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Also, see my reply there:
NET Bible / Rev. 13: 3: One of the beast’s heads appeared to have been killed, but the lethal wound had been healed. And the whole world followed the beast in amazement. // When General Vespasian was fighting at Jotapata, he was wounded. Roman soldiers simply passed along the words Vespasian was wounded without details. Word got to his son Titus who rushed to his father. WELL, the wound that was made on Vespasian’s foot was not mortal. It may have appeared to have been but it wasn’t.
NET Bible / Rev. 13: 5: The beast was given a mouth speaking proud words and blasphemies, and he was permitted to exercise ruling authority for forty-two months. // 84 months is 7 years, the length of the Jewish-Roman War 66 to 73. There were two Roman generals: Vespasian and Titus. Verse 6 says the beast (Vespasian) was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. Jesus was a Jewish purist. Rebels who fought against Rome were the saints (they took up their cross and followed Jesus).
NET Bible / Rev. 13: 11-12 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed
So, when General Vespasian became emperor, he left the war in Judea and gave it to another beast, his son Titus Teitan 666. 7 years divided by 2 in months = 42 months: 2 beasts, Father and Son, Vespasian and Titus but since Titus Teitan was general when the Temple was destroyed he is beast 666.
Steefen
YouTube Public Speaker (go to youtube.com and search for WBFbySteefen)Personal Essayist who published the book The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy
I’m currently working on the second edition of that work
Hi Steefen,
Thanks for your much documented post, but this is not really a reply to my concern which how how to obtain number 666 by totalling numeral values of a reasonably accurate spelling of CAESAR NERO in Hebrew letters. In my sense, it is virtually impossible.
In addition, the new Testament known today being written in Greek and not Hebrew, we can wonder whether the solution would not be to spell CAESAR NERO in Greek letters (which are also numerals like Hebrew), as the spelling in Greek is perfectly known from many coins in the name of NERO minted in Greek cities.
The result is equally negative. So I still believe that Bart D. Ehran was very imprudent when he wrote :
“When you spell the name Caesar Nero in Hebrew letters and add them up, they total 666”
Vey sorry.
CB
Star
I might be able to rescue you from Steefan’s irrelevancies. Eyeball this ** you do not have permission to see this link **. There’s a table explaining the calc:
An ** you do not have permission to see this link ** In Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (Pronounced “Nerōn Kaisar”). In Latin it is Nro Qsr (Pronounced “Nerō Kaisar”).
- Nron Qsr
The Greek version of the name and title ** you do not have permission to see this link ** as shown:
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ר) | ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ס) | ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ק) | ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (נ) | ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ו) | Resh (ר) | Nun (נ) | Sum |
| 200 | 60 | 100 | 50 | 6 | 200 | 50 | 666 |
- Nro Qsr
The Latin version of the name drops the second ** you do not have permission to see this link **
| Resh (ר) | Samekh (ס) | Qoph (ק) | Vav (ו) | Resh (ר) | Nun (נ) | Sum |
| 200 | 60 | 100 | 6 | 200 | 50 | 616 |
Hi spiker,
Great ! Ireally appreciate your very convincing post. It works, provided you name NERO as NERON, which is contrary to the normal latin spelling (see all coins of NERO for instance), as well as the Greek one (nu-epsilon-rho-omega).
Many thanks for your interest in my modest concern and kind regards.
CB
starfish,
The Book of Revelation is written in koine (common) Greek not Latin. The Greek spelling of “Nero” is “Neron”. In Latin his name is spelled “Nero”. Someone writing in Greek is probably going to use the spelling used in the language they are writing in, hence we would of course expect to see Nero spelled “Neron”.
In English we use the name “James”, but the Italian is “Giacomo”. An American or English writer is not going to use the Italian spelling when the vast majority of people don’t know that Giacomo is Italian for James. This is an extreme example of course, but hopefully this illustrates the issue better for you.
Finding out that “Nero” is spelled the Latin way in a Greek text would be, I would think, unusual so of course we expect to find out the author used the Greek spelling.
spiker said
Star
I might be able to rescue you from Steefan’s irrelevancies. Eyeball this ** you do not have permission to see this link **. There’s a table explaining the calc:
An ** you do not have permission to see this link ** In Hebrew it is Nron Qsr (Pronounced “Nerōn Kaisar”). In Latin it is Nro Qsr (Pronounced “Nerō Kaisar”).
- Nron Qsr
The Greek version of the name and title ** you do not have permission to see this link ** as shown:
** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ר) ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ס) ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ק) ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (נ) ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (ו) Resh (ר) Nun (נ) Sum 200 60 100 50 6 200 50 666
- Nro Qsr
The Latin version of the name drops the second ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Resh (ר) Samekh (ס) Qoph (ק) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Nun (נ) Sum 200 60 100 6 200 50 616
gmatthews said
starfish,The Book of Revelation is written in koine (common) Greek not Latin. The Greek spelling of “Nero” is “Neron”. In Latin his name is spelled “Nero”. Someone writing in Greek is probably going to use the spelling used in the language they are writing in, hence we would of course expect to see Nero spelled “Neron”.
In English we use the name “James”, but the Italian is “Giacomo”. An American or English writer is not going to use the Italian spelling when the vast majority of people don’t know that Giacomo is Italian for James. This is an extreme example of course, but hopefully this illustrates the issue better for you.
Finding out that “Nero” is spelled the Latin way in a Greek text would be, I would think, unusual so of course we expect to find out the author used the Greek spelling.
Insightful … Not something I had considered in my personal quest to rid my mind of the years of “religious dogma”
Cheers chaps
Hi gmatthews,
Thanks for your input. I don’t know if the name of Nero appears or not in the text of the Revelation. I guess not.
However, I still think that the regular name of Nero in Greek, attested by many coins of Greek cities is nu-espsilon-rho-omega (sorry, I don’t know how to write Greek characters in a post), although it might be the Greek spelling of NERON in vernacular language.
Anyway, I am thankful for the interesting insights I got in response to my post, which are far more than I expected. Thanks to all.
CB
All coins in the Roman empire were issued by Rome therefore any Greek coins would have been issued from a Roman controlled mint. In the case of Nero, a little Googling reveals that the Romans had a mint in Greece in Miletus during the reign of several emperors starting with at least Caligula and including Nero. If you Google images of ancient Greek coins during the Roman period you will see that they have Latin inscriptions, not Greek, with the spelling as “Nero”. Maybe there are exceptions, I’m not a coin expert.
The name Nero does not appear in Revelation. I was saying that you need to take into account how the author of Revelation would have spelled it if you want to play around with what 666 or 616 means.
Hi gmatthews,
Nobody can be an expert in everything, including numismatics. I cannot pretend to be an expert in this area (and it takes us rather far away from so-called John’s Apocalypsis …), but I have had for many years a keen interest in Roman numismatics.
True, the Roman Empire encompassed a number of cities which minted coins in the Roman style with latin legends (including Antioch of Syria etc.). This became the rule after Diocletian who imposed latin style coins in the whole empire issued from a strictly organized set of mints.
But until that time, many Greek cities of the Empire minted “autonomous” coins with Greek legends in the name of emperors (like Antioch again which minted in both styles). See for instance the plentiful coinage of Alexandria of Egypt which issued numerous base silver tetradrachms in the name of NERO (invariably spelled nu-epsilon-rho-omega).
Normally, this pseudo autonomous coinage was restricted to copper or bronze, with a few exceptions like Antioch, Ephesus etc.
But my aim is not to give a lecture … simply hope it can be of interest.
Kind regards.
Google Nero coins, click images.
Google Neron coins, click images.
I’m finding Nero Caesar Augustus. I am not finding Neron.
~ ~ ~
More importantly and relevant to throwing out Neron or Nero as Beast 666 is reading Beast 666 in context: Revelation 13: 1 through 17. The context calls for Beast 666 to relate to the first beast.
With the Irenaeus solution: General Titus relates to General Vespasian as beast against Judea.
To whom does Nero relate as beast against Christians, Chrestians, and/or Judea?
Titus is second-mentioned beast 666; Vespasian is first-mentioned beast.
Neron/Nero is second-mentioned beast 666: ______ is first-mentioned beast and why?
Stephen said
Steefen, in context the beast 666 is the first beast. The second beast defers to and serves the first.
That is incorrect. The second beast defers to and serves the first.
Chapter 13: 1-10 is a description of the first beast.
Chapter 13: 11-18 is a description of the second beast with 666 appearing in verse 18.
So, let’s take a look at 11-18.
11 another beast
12 it
13 it
14 it … it was allowed to perform in the sight of the first beast
15 it was then permitted to breathe life into the beast’s image, so the beast’s image could speak
16 it [referring to the second beast]: here “it” no longer relates to the second beast but the first beast’s image in 15. That would be incorrect. Starting with 11, we have a list of descriptors for the second beast.
17 the stamp of the second beast’s name or number
18 666 belongs to the second beast.
Also, The New American bible is attributing verses 11 – 18 to the second beast, not the first.
Stephen
Steefen, in context the beast 666 is the first beast. The second beast defers to and serves the first.
Steefen
Stephen, you can tell we are in agreement with the statement: The second beast defers to and serves the first.
I’m working with the solution that General Titus defers to his father Emperor Vespasian, formerly General/Governor Vespasian put in charge of Judea by Nero. We disagree when you say the beast 666 is the first beast.
13: 14 He ordered the inhabitants of the earth to set up an image in honor of the first beast.
13: 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. [I remember coming across talking statues in my readings. Statues were rigged for this effect.]
13: 16 The second beast also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
13: 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
13: 18 The number of his name is 666. [It is the name Teitan = Titus whose number is 666, not Vespasian’s name.]
Irenaeus’ line of reasoning should be referenced at this verse, Rev. 13: 18. Jesus definitely cared about the Temple and Temple Judaism. A beast would be one or more who harmed the Temple and Temple Judaism.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert