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Order of precedence for the Twelve
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brenmcg

1184 Posts
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April 16, 2022 - 1:13 pm

The varying lists of the Twelve in the synoptics and Acts, beginning with Simon Peter and ending with Judas Iscariot must be considered a listing by order of precedence.

Matthew “Simon, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James, Thaddaeus, Simon, Judas Iscariot”

Mark “Simon, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Thaddaeus, Simon, Judas Iscariot”

Luke “Simon, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Simon, Judas, Judas Iscariot”

Acts “Peter, John, James Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James, Simon, Judas”

The promotion of Matthew by one place in Mark and Luke is best understood as them giving Matthew recognition for the fact that they are borrowing heavily from his gospel.

Mark’s promotion of James and John above Andrew should be considered as a later development, resulting from the increasing prominence of James and John in the church ahead of Andrew. As with the later Acts ordering.

The Markan priority position that Luke first amended away from Mark’s order only to subsequently revert back to it in Acts must be considered problematic.

Best is the Matthean explanation that Simon and his brother Andrew were original leaders of the disciples and so that was the original ordering (Matthew and Luke). And that subsequent historic events lead to the promotion of James and John (Mark and Acts).

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jaihare

66 Posts
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May 3, 2022 - 3:17 pm

I don’t quite understand how this is relevant to the question of priority among the Gospels.

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brenmcg

1184 Posts
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May 3, 2022 - 6:29 pm

If Markan priority is correct, Luke has amended away from Mark’s ordering in his gospel and back to his ordering for Acts.

If Matthean priority is correct Luke has matched the original ordering and only changed later for Acts due to a more prominent role of James and John in the church.

For Markan priority an explanation must be given for two events, for Matthean priority an explanation must be found for one event. Therefore this observation favors Matthean priority.

The promotion of Matthew in the ordering of Mark/Luke favors the claim that Matthew was associated with the first gospel from very early on.

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jaihare

66 Posts
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May 4, 2022 - 3:49 am

brenmcg said
If Markan priority is correct, Luke has amended away from Mark’s ordering in his gospel and back to his ordering for Acts.

If Matthean priority is correct Luke has matched the original ordering and only changed later for Acts due to a more prominent role of James and John in the church.

For Markan priority an explanation must be given for two events, for Matthean priority an explanation must be found for one event. Therefore this observation favors Matthean priority.

The promotion of Matthew in the ordering of Mark/Luke favors the claim that Matthew was associated with the first gospel from very early on.

You think that priority means that they would have copied the list of names verbatim in the same specific order, and that changes in the order are intentional? What do you make of Luke giving a completely different genealogy from Matthew and Mark giving no genealogy at all? I think you read too much into the list of names.

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nikko

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May 4, 2022 - 8:52 am

What would make the writers of Mark or Luke think that the gospel they were borrowing from was written by Matthew, the disciple? His name would not be assigned to that gospel for a hundred years?

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brenmcg

1184 Posts
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May 4, 2022 - 11:14 am

jaihare said

You think that priority means that they would have copied the list of names verbatim in the same specific order, and that changes in the order are intentional? What do you make of Luke giving a completely different genealogy from Matthew and Mark giving no genealogy at all? I think you read too much into the list of names.  

Yes seeing as they all have Peter first and Judas last I think the ordering is always intentional.

I think Luke didn’t agree with Matthew’s genealogy and added a different version he heard or made up. Mark is agreeing with the author of 1 Timothy 1 and not devoting himself to “endless genealogies”.

And so Clement of Alexandria is right when he says “the earliest written gospels were those containing the genealogies”.

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brenmcg

1184 Posts
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May 4, 2022 - 11:15 am

nikko said
What would make the writers of Mark or Luke think that the gospel they were borrowing from was written by Matthew, the disciple? His name would not be assigned to that gospel for a hundred years?

The information for when the name “Matthew” was added to the first gospel is no longer available. It could have been on the title page of the very first edition for all anyone knows.

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