Robert said
What does that difference look like to you, Bruce 2? How exactly would one be a political agitator against the Sanhedrin without also being an agitator against Rome? Or vice-versa, how would one be a political agitator against Rome without also being a political agitator against the Sanhedrin? Is this just a speculative potential difference you’re making or is is grounded in actual evidence?
Primarily speculative, but if the Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem was a later invention and the overturning of the tables of the currency traders selling the official coin for Temple contributions was based on an event, then it seems that the trial tales become a tale of the powers that be in the Sanhedrin trying to talk the Roman officials into handling a threat to the Sanhedrin’s authority by trying to recast it into a threat to Roman authority.
Primarily speculative, but if the Palm Sunday entry into Jerusalem was a later invention and the overturning of the tables of the currency traders selling the official coin for Temple contributions was based on an event, then it seems that the trial tales become a tale of the powers that be in the Sanhedrin trying to talk the Roman officials into handling a threat to the Sanhedrin’s authority by trying to recast it into a threat to Roman authority.
Any disturbance in the Temple at Passover, with the Romans hovering about, would have been construed as an implicit attack on the Temple system, the product of an active, ongoing collaboration between the Sanhedrin and the Romans. The Romans had no interest in the subtilties of Jewish theology. They would have regarded any incident as inherently political and dealt with it accordingly.
My own surmise is that Jesus would have been arrested outright on the Temple Mount by the Temple Guard and immediately turned over to the Romans. The trials make good drama but are unlikely given what we know about how things worked. Many scholars have pointed out that the trial before the Sanhedrin violates their normal procedures, taking place at night and during the Passover. Did Pilate really personally interview all capital criminals? Here again we see Jesus being treated special, as befits God’s Son.
Robert said
brown.connor4 said
There is nothing implausible about Pilate placating Jewish sensibilities by conceding the body of one Jew, especially one not known to him to be a political agitator.What convinces you Pilate did not think of Jesus as a political agitator? It seems the Romans crucified him for a royal claim. What do you make of the “King of the Jews” charge?
It seems you have discounted certain historical records without explaining why you discount them. In one such historical record Pilate is clearly at a loss as to why some random Yeshua who has no known history of agitation is now being brought to him on charges of high treason during this crazy Jewish holiday. In this record he succumbs to political pressure: he hangs Jesus under the indictment of Treason, but that does not mean Pilate believed he was so.
Historians like Dr. Ehrman dehumanize figures from the past. They present Pilate as an automaton following some algorithmic code of behavior. Was Pilate not a human? Is it possible that he involved himself in a miscarriage of justice?
the sequence of the synoptic gospels is far more compelling (not entirely, the Barabbus detail is, in my view, clearly a theologically loaded fiction consciously inserted) than anything Dr. Ehrman as presented.
“the Barabbus detail is, in my view, clearly a theologically loaded fiction consciously inserted”
_The Passion Translation_ (2017)
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Page 409 — 27:16 …
Most Greek texts have only Barabbas.
The name Barabbas is Aramaic and means “son of a father” or “son who is like his father.”
He becomes a picture of every son of Adam, our father.
Some believe this is a figure of speech, a nickname for one who was born an illegitimate son, with no known father.
The true Son of the Father was crucified that day.
Page 568 — 23:18
There were two men, two sons.
Barabbas means “son of a father.”
Jesus was the Son of our heavenly Father.
One was a son of Adam; the other was the Son of God.
Page 643 — 18:40 …
Both in Greek and Aramaic the word for “thief” or “robber” can also mean one who leads an insurrection.
Maria Valtorta, _The Gospel as Revealed to Me_ vol 1-10
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aka
_The Poem of the Man-God_ vol 1-5
from vol 5 of 5, on 74-76
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«We are not delirious, Pontius.
We are telling you that unless you take a decision you will go through a sad time.
You will certainly be punished, if not killed, by the usurper.
The Nazarene will soon be proclaimed king, king of the world, do you understand?
Your very legionaries will proclaim Him.
They have been enticed by the Nazarene and today’s event has elated them.
What servant of Rome are you, if you do not take care of her peace?
So, do you want to see the Empire upset and divided because of your inertness?
Do you want to see Rome defeated, the ensigns pulled down, the Emperor killed, everything destroyed…»
«Be silent!
I will now speak.
And I say to you: _you are mad_!
You are even worse.
_You are liars. You are criminals_.
You deserve death.
Get out of here, you filthy servants of your own interests, of your hatred, of your meanness.
You are servants, not I.
I am a Roman citizen and Roman citizens are not subject to anybody.
I am an imperial official and I work for the welfare of our fatherland.
You… are our subjects.
You… are under our rule.
You… you are the galley-slaves tied to the benches and you fret in vain.
The lash of the chief is over you.
The Nazarene!…
Would you like me to kill the Nazarene?
Would you like me to put Him in prison?
By Jove!
If for the safety of Rome and of the divine Emperor I should imprison dangerous subjects or kill them here where I am the governor, I should leave free and alive the Nazarene and His followers, and them alone.
Go away.
Clear off and never come back here again.
You riotous fellows, instigators, thieves and accomplices of thieves!
I am well aware of all your manoeuvres.
You had better know that.
And bear in mind that new weapons and fresh legionaries have served to discover your snares and your instruments.
You complain of Roman taxes.
But how much have you paid for Melkiah of Gilead, and Jonah of Scythopolis, and Philip of Shochoh, and John of Beth-aven and Joseph of Ramoth, and for all the others who will soon be caught?
And do not go towards the caves in the valley because there are more legionaries there than stones, and the law and galley are the same for everybody.
For everybody!
Do you understand?
_For everybody_.
And I hope to live long enough to see you all in chains, slaves among slaves under the heel of Rome.
Get out!
Go and report – you as well, Eleazar of Annas whom I do not wish to see any more in my house – that the time of clemency _is over_, and that I am the Proconsul and you the subjects.
_The subjects_.
And I give orders.
In the name of Rome.
Go out!
You night snakes and vampires!
And the Nazarene wants to redeem you?
If He were God, He ought to strike you by lightning!
Thus the most revolting stain would disappear from the world.
Out!
And dare not conspire, or you will become acquainted with sword and whip.»
He stands up and goes away slamming the door before the dismayed members of the Sanhedrin, who have no time to come to themselves because an armed squad comes in and drives them out of the hall and of the building as if they were dogs.
They go back to the hall in the Sanhedrin.
They make their report.
The excitement is great.
The news of the arrest of many highwaymen and of raids into caves to catch more upsets very much all the members who have remained.
Many, in fact, tired of waiting, have gone away.
«And yet we cannot let Him live» shout some of the priests.
«We cannot leave Him alone.
He is active.
We are doing nothing.
And we are losing ground day by day.
If we leave Him free, He will continue to work miracles and everybody will believe in Him.
And the Romans will end up by opposing us and destroying us all together.
Pontius says so.
But if the crowds should proclaim Him king, oh! Pontius will have to punish all of us.
We must not allow that» shouts Sadoc.
«All right.
But how?
The attempt… by Roman law has failed.
Pontius is sure of the Nazarene.
The attempt… through our law is impossible.
He does not commit sin…» points out one of the members.
«If no sin exists, one can be invented» insinuates Caiaphas.
«It’s a sin to do that!
To swear what is false!
To have an innocent condemned!
It’s… too much!…» say most of them in horror.
«It’s a crime, because it would be His death.»
«So?
Does that frighten you?
You are foolish and you understand nothing.
After what happened Jesus must die.
Do you not consider that it is better for us if one man dies instead of many?
So let Him die to save His people so that all our country may not perish.
In any case… He says that He is the Saviour.
So let Him sacrifice Himself to save everybody» says Caiaphas with disgusting cold sly hatred.
«But… Caiaphas!
Consider!
He…»
«I have spoken.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, the High Priest.
Woe to those who do not respect the Pontiff of Israel.
The thunderbolts of the Lord upon them!
We have waited enough!
We have had enough flurry!
I order and decree that whoever knows where the Nazarene is must come and inform us of the place, and anathema on those who will not obey my word.»
«But Annas…» say some objecting.
«Annas said to me:
“Whatever you do will be holy”.
Let us close the meeting.
We shall all be here on Friday between the third and the sixth hour to decide what to do.
_All of us, I said. Inform those who are absent_.
And ensure that all the heads of families and classes, all the cream of Israel are summoned.
The Sanhedrin has spoken.
Go.»
And he is the first to withdraw to the place from which he came, whilst the others go in different directions and they leave the Temple speaking in low voices while going home.
Which specific post(s) is referred to?
“the Jewish leaders who turned Jesus over to Pilate, assuming for the sake of discussion that this is what happened, might have been doing what they thought was best for their own interests”
“the Barabbus detail is, in my view, clearly a theologically loaded fiction consciously inserted”
“suggesting that Valtorta’s poem of the god-man is a historical source?”
No– it was written in the 1940s.
Some people believe that it accurately depicts things that occurred.
Ditto that for
C. Alan Ames, _Through the Eyes of Jesus Trilogy_ (2003)
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Maybe Valtorta did get info from God about NT events, and maybe she didn’t.
I do find her material extremely interesting.
One guy claims to have sought to find holes in her writing, but was unable to.
Jean-François Lavère,
_The Valtorta Enigma, Volume 1: The astounding accuracy of one woman’s private revelation of the Gospel story_ (2023), 272pp.
_The Valtorta Enigma, Volume 2: Hidden truths unveiled: how the writings of Maria Valtorta clarify many Biblical questions_ (2024), 498pp.
“I am not convinced that the Jews (specifically the sanhedrine) were not allowed to bury crucified criminals, as a religious accomodation”
“another case, also embedded in the gospel tradition–Barabbas. I frankly find this detail implausible to the highest degree. If the Greek used of him does in fact indicate that he was arrested as an insurrectionist–that is, an enemy of the STATE–then I cannot even understand how Barabbas was not already crucified, let alone why he was allowed to be exchanged. It boggles the historian’s imagination”
_The Complete Works of Philo Complete and Unabridged_
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Page n961 — punishment;
for with all rulers, who govern any state on constitutional principles, and who do not seek to acquire a character for audacity, but who do really honour their benefactors,
it is the custom to punish no one, even of those who have been lawfully condemned, until the famous festival and assembly, in honour of the birth-day of the illustrious emperor, has passed.
(82) But he committed this violation of the laws at the very season of this festival, and punished men who had done no wrong;
though certainly, if he ever determined to punish them, he ought to have done so at a subsequent time;
but he hastened, and would admit of no delay, by reason of his eagerness to please the multitude who was opposed to them, thinking that in this way he should be able, more easily, to gain them over to the objects which he had in view.
(83) I have known instances before now of men who had been crucified when this festival and holiday was at hand, being taken down and given up to their relations, in order to receive the honours of sepulture, and to enjoy such observances as are due to the dead;
for it used to be considered, that even the dead ought to derive some enjoyment from the natal festival of a good emperor, and also that the sacred character of the festival ought to be regarded.
(84) But this man did not order men who had already perished on crosses to be taken down, but he commanded living men to be crucified, men to whom the very time itself gave, if not entire forgiveness, still, at all events, a brief and temporary respite from punishment; and he did this after they had been beaten by scourgings in the middle of the theatre;
and after he had tortured them with fire and sword;
(85) and the spectacle of their sufferings was divided;
for the first part of the exhibition lasted from the morning to the third or fourth hour, in which the Jews were scourged, were hung up, were tortured on the wheel, were condemned, and were dragged to execution through the middle of the orchestra;
and after this beautiful exhibition came the dancers, and the buffoons, and the flute-players, and all the other diversions of the theatrical contests.
hat tip
_How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus’ Divine Nature—A Response to Bart D. Ehrman_ (2014), 236pp., 74, 78-79
“The Shroud of Turin? Still?”
@Warriorking.1963 – 8 April 2026 comment on
What No One Ever Told You About the Shroud of Turin w/Jeremiah J. Johnston – Cross Examined
Excellent!
It might sound like I’m being selfish and self-centred, but I was an atheist for most of my life, until 2023 when the Shroud convinced me Jesus really is God who dies for my sins.
He left his mark on the Shroud to give me the proof I needed to believe in Him, what a guy!!!
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
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Robert
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